It was sarcasm. “I am waiting for my little subsect of the population to be affected before I change my views on a large social problem.” The “indian” part was simply convenient for Lib to use for illustration in this particular case*.
This guy is a homophobe AND a complete knuckle-dragging moron. Just how butch tough does he expect 3 year old to be? This guy should be incarcerated till he shuffles loose this mortal coil.
Also, I agree we should dispense with the hopes for “prison justice”.
[sub]* I hope I got that right. That’s how I read it, anyway[/sub]
Yes, because running someone over with your car and sniping them from a rooftop are the exact same thing. Do you posses any reading comprehension at all, or is it all just random words to you?
Hey, fuck you right back atcha Otto, I’m glad no poster with a track record of rationality cursed at me, I might have been upset. If you take your head out of your ass (undoubtedly knocked there by your jerking knee) you’ll notice that I wasn’t condemning people who “expect to be treated decently in spite of differences”, I’m all for that and always have been, a fact that is reflected clearly in my posting history. Nope, what I’m saying is that if you think that a crime against you should be punished more severely than the exact same crime against someone who is not a member of your group, than you want special status. Tell me, suppose John Kerry beats Mr. Moto to death with a crowbar because he voted for Bush, then George Bush beats you to death with a crowbar because you’re gay, David Duke beats Urban Chic to death with a crowbar because she’s black and female (a twofer!) and finally Howard Dean beats some random stranger to death with a crowbar for no reason whatsoever (YEEEEAHHHH!). Should the punishment for all four crimes be the same? If not, then why should some people be punished more severely than others for the exact same crime?
I would hope that, in theory and in practice, if Carson Kresley were to beat in the head of Britney Spears with a brass Ikea hanger rod while shrieking, “Die, breeder! Die!”, that he would receive the exact same hate-crime punishment as a gay-basher would under such a law. Is this expressing a wish for special treatment?
Hey, everybody! Regardless of our personal gripes with each other and accusations of one-trick-ponyery, can we agree on the following? That
Beating a child to death, and
Being so angered that a child exhibits stereotypically “gay” behaviours that you respond by beating him to death,
… are horrible and disgusting? How 'bout that? Good, 'cause I thought that was the point. Sheee-esh.
Now, should we start another thread about whether motivation should correlate with punishment, or do we want to wrangle over that here because of Otto’s angry line in the OP?
And granted, the parent was probably inclined to violence anyway, but to suggest that killing a child while trying to beat the gay out of him isn’t at all related to attitudes on homosexuality is a real leap, IMO. It would seem to be just about as good a demonstration as there can be that at least some people are very, very, disapproving of it. I’d personally guess this to be a horrifying collision of the attitude that smacking a toddler around will make him listen and the attitude that shock therapy can turn a kid hetero. Oh, and the attitude that [whatever behaviour that toddler exhibited] == [kid is gay].
But I’m probably just shouting from my soapbox again. :rolleyes:
I think the point is that someone who beats a child to death because he believes the child has been fathered by someone else, or because he is a sadist, or for some other reason, should receive exactly the same condemnation and exactly the same punishment as someone who beat a child to death to inculcate a heterosexual orientation.
Morally relevent distinctions can be drawn on intent - did you mean to kill the child, or did you mean to beat him but got carried away, etc. But I don’t see the morally relevent distinction between beating a child to death because you were worried he would grow up to be gay, and beating a child to death because he wet the bed or something.
If we are agreeing that anyone who beats a child to death should receive the ultimate punishment, then we will only disagree on what the ultimate punishment should be - whether death, life in prison and frequent rape, life in prison without frequent rape, ow whatever. If, as seems to have been advocated (I grant you, rhetorically) that homophobic murderers should be punished more or worse than “regular” murderers, yes, that is a call for special treatment for the victims of homophobic murder.
Hey, you’re the one who said motivation for killing someone doesn’t matter. Don’t jump all over someone else for pointing out the shortcomings of your own argument.
Sure, the same crime should be punished the same way. The crimes you listed aren’t all identical, though, because they’ve all got different motives. If David Duke beats UrbanChic to death with a crowbar for being black, he should get the same punishment UrbanChic should get for beating David Duke to death because he’s white. If Howard Dean beats some random schmoe to death with a crowbar because he’s totally fucking insane, he should not get the same punishment as John Kerry for beating Mr. Moto to death for being a Republican, nor should I get the same punishment for beating you to death with a crowbar because I lost my glasses and mistook your head for a packing crate. Motive matters in determining severity of punishment. This is hardly a new development in criminal law.
Do you think that that punishment should be the same as the punishment given to Joe Sixpack who beats in the head of Bob Homeowner with a shovel because Joe doen’t like Bob’s car?
What shortcomings? Are you saying that accidentally running over someone is your car is the same act as sniping someone from a building? If so, then I’ll have to conclude that you are either A: an idiot or B: A. If not then tell me what I’m not understanding about your argument.
So you clearly think certain groups do deserve special treatment. Why?
We certainly don’t see eye to eye on a lot of issues but you’re basically an ok guy. Since this is the Pit and not a love in I’ll add some swearing. Crap. There, that should satisfy the rules.
Thats what I want to know, and why? 4 people got their heads bashed in by crowbars, yet you think all 4 perps should be treated differently. What I want to know is why? I think they should all get the same punishment. Why do you think differently?
That poor little boy shouldn’t have been anywhere near his shitbag parents.
I have my own hope for the dad’s punishment: may his conscience be awakened and his sense of empathy developed. While I won’t deny the appeal of the thought of someone beating the shit out of the dad and asking him how well he likes it, living with the horror of having killed an innocent toddler for what was in all likelihood normal toddler behavior would be much worse.
It may not be “pathological”, but it’s a hell of a lot worse than just opposition to same-sex marriage. Gays are laughed at on TV; the macho man just shudders if his buddies think he’s a queer. Guys still go out on Friday night with the sole intention of beatin’ up some homos. Our own fucking government wants to make sure gays are forever marginalized in our society. It’s not just a passing opposition to marriage.
You read it right, of course. But so did he, I suspect. His why-must-you-flaunt-your-heritage schtick is analogous to white-collar suburban homophobia. I suppose it’s okay to be a greasy little Tonto so long as I stay downwind from him.
Most likely, based on the other facts you can glean from the article. He would’ve found some other “justification” for his child abuse. That’s the point that keeps getting lost in everybody’s attempts to politicize it and decry homophobia and “gender facism” and call each other idiots. Par for the course for this fucking message board.
Wow, the voice of reason is totally ignored. I am with you, wolfstu.
Everyone seems to agree that this guy is a total bag of crap. It looks to me like everyone was pissed of about this, and starting jumping on each other. I mean, get real. This guy MURDERED a toddler. All this bickering is below us. In my humble opinion, we should all have put in our agreement that this guy is a dirtbag, and taken our CIVILISED debate on homophobia to Great Debates.
On topic: I can’t even begin to say in words how much this disgusts me. Makes me want to cry.
Not quite, matt_mcl, though I see what you’re saying and it’s a reasonable discussion point. I think you’ve generalised my point too far. Antipathy to folks who aren’t like us is an understandable hangover from our evolutionary heritage, though that’s not to excuse it. But to be antipathetic to one’s own offspring, to the point of killing 'em … that’s another kettle of fish.
Fuckin’ Uncle Tom. :rolleyes:
Look, I’ll extend the hand of friendship here. I saw Otto and matt_mcl making what looked like a soapbox out of a horrible tragedy. It would not, however, have hurt me to keep my wug shut. We are, after all, agreed on the most important points here:
This was an abominable waste of an innocent young life.
The apology for a parent deserves whatever penalty the law will allow.
We’ve had our say and plenty of it, and it would be as well to SFTU round about now. Can we agree to that?
