Fathers and daughters

In My Humble Opinion
61

School dances are by definition not unchaperoned activities. I just get the impression that your daughter is extremely sheltered, and am curious as to whether you have taken the same tack with your son.

Sadly, it is. They’re either forgetting that the girls were willing participants and trying to idealize teenage girls as not horny, or they remember that the girls were very willing and can’t stand the thought of anyone touching their precious.

Either way, the double standard that exist when it comes to a daughter vs. a son in the same situation bothers me greatly. I can’t see how any good can come of it.

62

I agree with catsix. Someone alert the media! :wink:

63

[QUOTE=catsix]
Sadly, it is. They’re either forgetting that the girls were willing participants and trying to idealize teenage girls as not horny, or they remember that the girls were very willing and can’t stand the thought of anyone touching their precious.

Either way, the double standard that exist when it comes to a daughter vs. a son in the same situation bothers me greatly. I can’t see how any good can come of it.
[/QUOTE]

Zactly!
I tried real hard with both of my kids to not teach a double standard. I think I succeeded.

64

I have two 18 year old girls, and 3 younger, teenage boys.

When my girls were born, Mrs. Slow and I made jokes between us along the lines of the ones posted above. My line was something along the lines of arranging a marriage with a man too old to anything more than drop dead. As they matured, so did we. When they were old enough to date, or too young, depending on who you are, I told them to use me as an excuse if someone asked them out, and they didn’t want to go. One of my twins is very shy, and the other is every bit the geek that her father is. I can not believe I have actually told them that they should wear more make-up. I still joke with them along the lines of the introducing their boyfriends to Mr Hammer, but they know it is a joke. I remember some thread around here showing how fathers evolve from over protective, to flagging down any old pickup truck and throwing their girl in it by the time the girl is 30. There was some truth in that.

Boys have not been a problem with my girls. But, I still trust my judgment more than theirs. It is my experience that men are much better at recognizing an a$$hole guy than teenage girls, or adult women, for that matter. The reverse is also true. I would not hesitate to tell my girls if some guy was a jerk, and that they couldn’t tell it yet.

Am I more protective of my girls than my boys? Yes, I think so. Is it a double standard? I’m not sure. My boys are a lot less likely to get beaten by a girlfriend than my girls are to get beaten by a boyfriend. My boys are less likely to endanger their dates, than the average teenage male, and so are safer than my girls.

Catsix, one of the main purposes of parents is to protect their kids. A 16 year old running off at an event and coming back with a 22 year old who is doing community service is a 16 year old who needs some protection. If I’ve been deliberately flashed (as a 46 year old) by a high school girl at a dance, then I’m sure Ivygirl is not a total innocent. I think you have been unfair to Ivylass.

65

And I think that there are signs that ivylass has to protect her daughter so much because the daughter has been protected so much. Not the least of which being that it seems to be a big deal that a sixteen year old walked around alone at any type of event. I also wonder why, at her age, she doesn’t know what community service is.

Spending a few hours out of the sight of parents, especially under circumstances as ivylass described, is hardly running off. If she was gone for three days without anyone knowing where she was, that’d be ‘running off’.

I don’t think I have. I think there’s definitely a double standard at work.

Violence against men by women happens more often than most people realize, and when it does there is very little help out there for the men.

Some people are good at picking up on it, and some aren’t. It’s not a gender based ability to tell when someone’s an asshole. My sister dates assholes all the time, and my dad thinks they’re just great.

Over protection is crippling, and that is not a parent’s job.

66

[QUOTE=catsix]

Spending a few hours out of the sight of parents, especially under circumstances as ivylass described, is hardly running off. If she was gone for three days without anyone knowing where she was, that’d be ‘running off’.

[/QUOTE]

It is not that she was gone for a couple of hours. It is that a 16 year old came back with a 22 year old, who had been convicted of something.

[QUOTE=catsix]

Violence against men by women happens more often than most people realize, and when it does there is very little help out there for the men.

[/QUOTE]

A friend of a friend had a blind date with an abusive woman, and made the local paper. Still, the statistics say it is more likely for one of my girls to run into an abusive boy, than one of my boys into an abusive girl. Given that while all my kids are very fit (they are on a swim team), an abusive relationship is also much more likely to be dangerous for my girls than my boys.

[QUOTE=catsix]

Some people are good at picking up on it, and some aren’t. It’s not a gender based ability to tell when someone’s an asshole. My sister dates assholes all the time, and my dad thinks they’re just great.

[/QUOTE]

I disagree. My experience over the last 30 years has been that members of each gender are much better at reading their own gender. Your dad might be an exception, or he might be doing what he thinks is right despite thinking that your sister dates assholes. Parents keep things from the kids, too.

[QUOTE=catsix]

Over protection is crippling, and that is not a parent’s job.
[/QUOTE]

I’m sure this is our age difference showing up. If Ivygirl had been, say, 21, Ivylass could have done no more than criticize. But a 16 year old requires some protection from the kinds of 22 year olds that return her interest. Ivygirl not knowing what community service implied doesn’t really mean much. I grew up in an almost crime free area; people in my wife’s hometown still don’t lock their doors when they leave. There is essentially no crime where we live now. I’d be surprised if my own kids know.

67

What jumped out at me was that she felt the need to explain that this was a small event and that the daughter knew where she was. I’d expect that if the daughter was say, twelve. But sixteen? It doesn’t seem typical, nor indicative that ‘girls are more inexperienced’. I don’t doubt that ivylass has a very inexperienced daughter. The impression that I get is that she is far more inexperienced than most her age, and that it’s due to being kept closely watched by her parents. My reaction there was formed based on ivylass posting a justification of why she let a sixteen year old walk around alone, as if there needed to be one.

You do realize that the kind of guy who’s really going to abuse them will very likely not be afraid of you, right? You daughters, on the other hand, may well be so used to a man controlling every aspect of their lives that when the abusive boyfriend who is not afraid of you starts to control them, it would seem normal.

Mine has been that there are men who judge any male who shows any interest in their daughter as a sleazeball. They don’t want anyone, ever, to touch their daughter at all. My dad doesn’t see these guys as assholes because they are like him, with their archaic notions of what is right and wrong and they display a smiliar macho posture.

I grew up in one of those idyllic small towns where nobody locks their doors and it’s like Pleasantville all the time. I knew what community service was at sixteen. Maybe not because people in my town were sentenced to it, but I read books and watched television and hell, got out of the house without my parents up my ass. A sixteen year old who rides around on a golf cart without any clue what it means that the 22 year-old driver is on community service has either lived way too sheltered a life and needs protection purely because she has been over-protected, or is lying.

Unless you keep them in the house all the time and don’t let them watch television, they probably know.

I don’t know how old you are, but I doubt I’m as young as you think I am.

68

[QUOTE=catsix]

You do realize that the kind of guy who’s really going to abuse them will very likely not be afraid of you, right? You daughters, on the other hand, may well be so used to a man controlling every aspect of their lives that when the abusive boyfriend who is not afraid of you starts to control them, it would seem normal.

[/QUOTE]

Why do you assume I control every aspect of my daughter’s lives? And, on what do you base your assumption about anyone who might abuse them? The few abusive men I have known are not notably brave or fit, in fact the opposite. They are also more likely assume others have the same anger and control issues they have, than the decent guys, and so, I would think, more likely to fear me. (I am 6’ 2", and very fit.)

[QUOTE=catsix]

Mine has been that there are men who judge any male who shows any interest in their daughter as a sleazeball. …

[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t referring to just fathers judging their daughters’ boyfriends, except as an extension of my observation.

[QUOTE=catsix]

I grew up in one of those idyllic small towns where nobody locks their doors and it’s like Pleasantville all the time. I knew what community service was at sixteen. Maybe not because people in my town were sentenced to it, but I read books and watched television and hell, got out of the house without my parents up my ass. A sixteen year old who rides around on a golf cart without any clue what it means that the 22 year-old driver is on community service has either lived way too sheltered a life and needs protection purely because she has been over-protected, or is lying.

[/QUOTE]

She might be lying. Or, she might have an interest in the TV shows, books, etc. that have little to do with such topics. I obviously can’t speak for Ivygirl, but one of my twins reads 3-4 books a day, but generally fantasy, because that is what interests here. I’m not sure I’ve seen her watch TV.

[QUOTE=catsix]

I don’t know how old you are, but I doubt I’m as young as you think I am.
[/QUOTE]

I will be 47 all too soon.

69

I get that impression from the attitudes displayed in this thread. The macho posturing just makes me think of the way a person would act about a piece of property, not about a human being. I’ve been around all types of people, including at least one serial killer, and I get the impression from those experiences that the true badass will not fear someone’s daddy if he has no fear of prison.

Why should it matter to you that your daughter’s boyfriend fear you unless you are guarding the tower?

Some people are good at judging character, and some are not. I’ve never seen it correlate with gender at all. I have seen that people who love someone can delude themselves to no ends about the character of the one they love, and this includes family members and people of the same gender.

I don’t think it’s an age difference issue. I’m 30, and I still think a parent who feels the need to explain why her sixteen year old was unsupervised is probably helicoptering too much. In light of the rest of the description, I’d say that the daughter is not in need of protection because she’s sixteen, but because she’s been extremely sheltered.

70

When I was a teenage boy, I respected girls, believed in saving sex until marriage (still do) and was raised to put safety above all else. I never did anything reckless, I just spent a lot of time doing creative things (art and writing). I was knowledgeable about guns and would have enjoyed talking with a dad who had been cleaning a gun had I met one.

I was the dream boyfriend that every father has for his daughter. But the problem was that no girl was interested. I never dated in high school. I tried, but girls were NOT interested in me. I once had a girl scold me for asking her out once, literally standing there and yelling at me for expressing interest.

So there is something to be said about raising a daughter to pursue the right kind of relationship. If I ever have a daughter, I will worry about her, but not because of “how I was when I was a teenager,” but because I knew what all of my male peers were like. When women complain about men, I join in. There is so much macho bullshit in the world that it is hard to grow up being a respectful male.

71

Which although not unique does make you pretty unusual.

I suppose your mistake was in trying to date the daughters. You probably should have gone for the fathers.

In all honesty, I wouldn’t have gone out with you either. I was way too horny to be with a guy who wanted to wait until marriage.

Because they were the kind of guys girls actually wanted to go out with? Your hypothetical future daughter will probably be just as horny as they are, and you’ll worry about her because she might get what she wants?

Not having sex is not the same as being respectful. It’s perfectly possible for a guy to be respectful and still have sex with a girl. If all parties involved are honest about what they want and not out to hurt each other’s feelings, then what’s disrespectful?

72

[QUOTE=Atomicktom]

My opinion is that boys and girls learn what is normal and appropriate from the adults who raise them. A boy learns how to act like a man from his father-figure, and he learns how a woman should behave from his mother-figure. Vice versa for girls.

So, if the father wants to ensure that your daughter grows up to date/marry appropriate males, the father only needs to look at himself. Does he treat women with respect? Does he respect boundaries? If so, his daughter will gravitate towards men who exude those same characteristics. Sadly, if he’s a drunk, or insults women, or is otherwise an ass, she’ll seek out men who fit that role, too.

[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. Dads, the most important thing you can do take keep your daughter from dating an asshole is to treat your wife with love and respect. If she grows up thinking that’s normal, then that’s what she’ll seek in a mate.

73

[QUOTE=catsix]
Because they were the kind of guys girls actually wanted to go out with? Your hypothetical future daughter will probably be just as horny as they are, and you’ll worry about her because she might get what she wants?
[/QUOTE]

Maybe she’ll learn to masturbate. That’s kind of a natural thing. Better than settling for the nearest guy of matching hornitude, disregarding all other compatibilities.

And that’s what creeps me out. That people of both genders and of any age will base relationships on whether their partner “puts out,” and/or how well they perform. On one hand, it elevates sexual intercourse to a sacred, all-that-matters, level. On the other hand, it can make sex seem like a responsibility taken lightly.

[QUOTE=catsix]
Not having sex is not the same as being respectful. It’s perfectly possible for a guy to be respectful and still have sex with a girl. If all parties involved are honest about what they want and not out to hurt each other’s feelings, then what’s disrespectful?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t find macho bullshit respectful even (and especially) when it occurs in a room full of men. It is interesting that you painted me with that brush. It seems to me that the majority of disrespect when it comes to machismo is when it comes to the levels of respect men have for one another. Whether it occurs in a father-meets-the-boyfriend scenario, in a lockerroom, or in the workplace, it is always excruciatingly juvenile. I hope my hypothetical future daughter dates a guy who opts out of all pissing matches.

[QUOTE=catsix]
I suppose your mistake was in trying to date the daughters. You probably should have gone for the fathers.
[/QUOTE]

But my dad would have been sooooo mad!

74

My poor dad came from a family of only boys… 5 in total. Then he had two daughters… we confused the poor man, he tried real hard, and he’s the sweetest man ever, but he paid no attention to our friends or who we were dating unless my mother told him to. LOL. Really, I think he spent most of our teenage years just wanting to hide in the bathroom.

Now, God musta figured that a wife and 2 daughters weren’t enough women in his life… he now has 3 granddaughters ranging in age from 21 down to 7 months and still no grandsons. I will say, my sister and I love our father, he’s very sweet, but his three granddaughters think he can walk on water… he was a good dad, but he’s and AMAZING grandpa. :slight_smile: