Fathers of daughters: Do you think all men are scum till proven otherwise?

The BBQ Pit
361

I think you’re assuming they’d want to know all the details…I’m sure I wouldn’t, if I were them. But for me, the crux is that if you’re “old enough” to have sex, then you’re “old enough” to take responsibility. Talking about it isn’t that big of a deal compared to, say, contracting AIDS.

I think I’d approach it as giving answers for which they didn’t ask the questions. They probably don’t know which questions to ask, anyway.

For example, when you sleep with another person, you’re sleeping with that person’s entire history AND the histories of the people that person slept with before you. So Alan sleeps with Betty and gets syphilis from her, but she got it from Chuck. So you might say Alan got it from Chuck, though Alan and Chuck weren’t having sex.

So where did Chuck get it? How far back and into how many branches of the “tree chart” do we have to go? There are adults who never think about this, which is crazy IMO. Anyway the teen should have learned that concept when making decisions.

In light of what has been discussed in this thread, I have to revise my world view.

Back in the day: Teens dated and slept with each other. Occasionally someone got pregnant, but the system was more “closed” to adults.

Today: Teens are probably sleeping with adults more. If girls have decided to be more forward with men, you know some 16 year-old has her eye set on a 21year-old guy. Some of those guys don’t know the meaning of “jail bait” and if she doesn’t get pregnant or an STD, nobody is any the wiser.

And, teens are probably “sleeping with adults” more, in the way that Alan got the clap from Chuck without sleeping with him. E.g. a 17 year old hooks up with a college guy for a one night stand. Then she goes back to high school and hooks up with a senior guy. Then that senior guy hooks up with a freshman girl.

Only before the college guy hooked up with the 17 year-old, he had hooked up with a graduating senior who had been having an affair with her middle-aged professor. And he was secretly bisexual. Who knows?

Sure that’s exaggerated, but that effect—blurring the lines between teens and adults in the sexual arena—has to be a given.

While talking to my kid, I’d also like to debunk some of the bullshit that’s bound to arise when teens teach teens about sex. I don’t want the blind leading the blind. There’s the old “You can’t get pregnant if you don’t do it standing up” stuff.

But also, more advanced stuff. Like the withdrawal method—IIRC in my sexuality class, we were taught that the Cowpers Glands release some sperm to neutralize leftover urine in the urethra before the major load. It’s involuntary and the guy can’t feel it, so he’s already released some sperm into her without knowing it. The joke was, “What do you call a healthy man and woman who use the withdrawal method?”/“Mommy and Daddy.”

What’s the bit from the Herpes med ads? “Some may be able to transmit herpes even when there are no signs of outbreak” or something like that. If I met a terrific woman and we dated and she confessed, “By the way, I contracted herpes when I was 16…” I’d be gone. As I understand it you can treat the symptoms but they can’t cure it. I’d have to figure that in a LTR, I’d get it from her…so I’d get gone.

Gonorrhea?

A small number of people may be asymptomatic for a lifetime. Between 30% and 60% of people with gonorrhea are asymptomatic or have subclinical disease.

In women, the most common result of untreated gonorrhea is pelvic inflammatory disease, a serious infection of the uterus that can lead to infertility.

That goes back to what I was saying earlier: if you’re old enough to have it, you’re old enough to take responsibility. I don’t want my kid hiding that from me, hoping it will go away on its own, whatever.:smack:

I’d also like the kid to know that ultimately, (s)he lives with the consequences. Say the kid tells me he uses condoms but nah he’s just lying to me and he doesn’t…and then he gets herpes. I won’t live with that consequence like he will. Someone once said that the secret to motivation is getting the other guy to want the same thing you do.

What about the social fallout? So my little Billy slept with someone he shouldn’t have and he got crabs. Hey not life-threatening, cheap lesson? Maybe not, if he gave it to others and it makes him a pariah. But hell, I don’t know because teens are a culture unto themselves…maybe that would make him BMOC. :confused:

I think parents should teach respect for sex. That doesn’t mean that kids are forbidden from it (like that would work, right?) but that with freedom comes responsibility. The difficulty, I think, is in hitting that magic mark…I don’t want the kid to grow up neurotic about sex: it’s the greatest_thing_ever. But neither do I want them taking crazy chances they may deeply regret later. The only solution I can see is to give them the information and let them weigh it for themselves.

362

I think I might have to make this my sig:

Now, that being said, everyone should wear condoms for STI prevention whenever they’re in a nonmonogamous relationship or both partners don’t have a history of clean tests. But withdrawal as a method of contraception isn’t really as bad as it’s cracked up to be; certainly it’s not worthy of the “parents” joke. If nothing else, withdrawal is indeed quite a bit better than nothing, and it doesn’t expire and can’t be left in a warm glove box or ruined by oil based lubricant.

363

While I agree with a lot of your post (especially hammering in all the sex-related urban legends out there e.g. You can’t get pregnant your first time/standing up/if you follow up sex with a Coca Cola douche), I’m not too sure about this:

364

[As Beavis] You said ‘cracked,’ hehehehehehehe

The class was long ago and I wondered about it myself; as you say, it’s better than nothing. But it’s not nearly better than being prepared in the first place.

Today: Teens are probably sleeping with adults more.

It seems like a pretty safe thing to say. If girls are becoming more aggressive, the guys will often oblige them. Unless there’s some corresponding reaction or other factor from guys that’s making them hold back…hmm.

Now, how much were they doing so in the past? I don’t know. And how much increase might there have been? Again, I don’t know.

365

@WhyNot

Typical use of withdrawal, which is how most people use it, has a failure rate of approximately 18-19%.

I don’t want to pick nits but I wonder about the study. When I became sexually active, I thought condoms were a good thing, i.e. I was too sensitive and probably would have lasted 30 seconds. Now, I sometimes wonder if the woman is still in the room with me or…?

My only point being that I would expect max failure from young men. Sure that’s because they’re inexperienced with any bc method—got the condom on wrong, maybe. But also because it’s sooooo goooood that they don’t have as much warning (or control maybe) as an older guy. I.e. if they did the study with guys who were in their 30s, maybe they could achieve those results, but if we’re applying it to teens…

Plus, let’s face it: it’s better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. Some guys who “couldn’t get out in time” really didn’t want to. Maybe it’s not a failure of the method’s ability to work, but a failure of the user to abide by its guidelines. Either way, the result may not be good.

366

FTR, although I’m not sure how far “back in the day” you’re referring to, I’m glad to hear someone admit that!

I’m recalling a convo between my mom and her sister. Paraphrased from memory:

Aunt J: In our day, no one had sex before marriage. Certainly not in high school.

Mom: Sure they did!

Aunt J: No!

Mom: They did. Remember the Home for Wayward Girls? What do you think that was for? And remember Mary Smith, who “went away to boarding school” senior year? And Jane Brown and Joe Jones, who got married right after graduation, and the baby was born in December? And this one, and that one? And During the War[sup]TM[/sup], which we were too young for, but “It’s my last night stateside” ended a lot of virginities. There was a whole system set up to deal with the consequences. All that’s changed is, now everything’s out in the open.

Aunt J: Well, I didn’t! You didn’t…did you?

Mom: No, but we’re two out of millions. It happened plenty.

367

Oh, sorry to disappoint. Back in the day wasn’t that long ago for me (HS class of 81). I just meant that if teens formed their own dating pool, STDs/STIs weren’t an issue. Pregnancy, sure…but if the girls are getting more aggressive, the STD incidence may change if age lines are being crossed.

Great story, btw! Are you sure it wasn’t:

Mom: (looks away and starts busying herself with the dishes) Uh, no, no I didn’t, huh uh.

Get my mom to admit that? I_don’t_think_so! :dubious::smiley:

368

Wow, um, teens pressuring teens? You may have caught this elsewhere on these boards, but it merits mention in here I think.

The thread:

The article cited in the thread:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/waukesha/39124037.html

The thread’s OP’s description:

In summary, a Wisconsin teen is accused of posing as a female on Facebook, and persuading at least 31 male classmates to send him naked photos and videos of themselves. He then used the photos as blackmail in order to coerce the boys into having sex with him at various places around town. In addition to the 300 photos and videos of his classmates, police found tons of other child pornography on his computer. He is also accused of making several bomb threats against the school. Police believe there are probably many more victims who have yet to come forward.

Geez, dopers, please talk to your kids. Everything we talked about in thread and did we even get around to keeping teens safe from on line dangers? “To catch a predator?” No, an 18 year-old peer. Goddamn.

Not a parent but I imagine it’s soooo important to keep those lines of communication open, even if you’re not always thrilled with the answers. They can get in over their heads too easily.

369

Oh, I do too, and I’m going to try and track the second linkedstudy down to read it directly. I think it’s interesting, although not surprising, that they’ve found greater actual failure rates for first year of use than the standard “average” study rates (27% vs. 18% for withdrawal). I’d expect that this first-year-of-use study would skew younger than your average contraceptive chart, which is why I thought it might give a more fair idea of failure rates for the purposes of this thread (and the other I linked it to today.)

The “better to beg forgiveness” and the guys who ejaculate without realizing it are all included in the “typical use” rates. That’s what makes the use “typical” instead of “perfect.”

Still, even 27%, the rate of failure for couples using withdrawal for the first year, is still a far better cry than 85%, the rate of pregnancy for couples who use nothing at all. Those sperm believed to irrigate the urethra pre-ejaculation do so because the urethra is a hostile environment; it seems that most of them die or are rendered infertile in the process.

370

Points taken. Just makes sense. If you have a choice between a small vanguard and the full-on load, it’s obvious. But you’ll probably agree that some (many? most?) teens will interpret “Well if you don’t have a condom…” that they will proceed without condom as the default instead of the exception. If they do it regularly with the withdrawal method, a smallish probability multiplies.

Besides which, there’s the STD/STI issue.

371

Abso-freaking-lutely. I’m 100% in favor of condom use, certainly! I’m just also a stickler for the facts, and withdrawal gets even more unwarranted bad press then FAM (hint: it’s NOT the rhythm method!) Knowledge is power, the more you know, fighting ignorance since 1973, yadda yadda yadda…

372

OK, FAM…you lost me.

Just be advised that condoms are nowhere (read: satisfaction) as far as this man is concerned. When I was younger, they helped me last longer/finishing too soon. Now they deaden the pleasure too much. Anyway, it has always been true: ain’t nothing like the real thing, baby. Younger men may expect or demand the ultimate.

373

Fertility Awareness Method. Basically, it involves a woman’s monitoring the physiological changes that indicate where she is in her menstrual cycle, so she can avoid having unprotected sex during her fertile interval. (Or, if she’s trying to get pregnant instead of trying not to, she can focus on the fertile interval as the prime time for unprotected sex.)

And WhyNot is right that FAM is not the same thing as the haphazard day-counting that was known as the “rhythm method”. The fundamental principle is the same (namely, identify when your fertile interval occurs), but FAM is much more accurate and effective. If done right, natch.

374

Sorry. Fertility Awareness Method. Using the woman’s waking temperature, the consistency of her cervical fluid and (optionally) the position of her cervix to determine which days of the month she’s fertile. For some reason I can’t quite wrap my head around, everyone you mention it to thinks it’s The Rhythm Method, which it isn’t. But you (I) get to hear the same “What do you call users of the Rhythm Method? Parents!” joke every single time.

Women too, believe it or not. It’s the best argument for monogamy I’ve heard yet!

ETA: Oh, hey there, Kimstu! Fancy meetin’ you here. :wink:

375

:wink: Wow, and we even linked to the same FAM site!

376

Ah OK…yeah I remember that the “Rhythm Method” was considered very imprecise.

377

I was watching TV tonight and saw a PSA: IIRC, the quote was “1/3 of sexually active people will have contracted an STD by age 25.” Sorry, no cite on that and I can’t find it on youtube. I know that “STD” is a big umbrella but dayum! But ok, here’s something I found:

*Nov. 13, 2007 – With nearly 3 million new chlamydia infections a year and drug-resistant gonorrhea on the rise, a new CDC report offers a grim view of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) in America.

The report shows that STDs are on the rise across the U.S. Southern states are particularly affected, although sharp increases in Western states also raise eyebrows.

Overall, 19 million Americans catch an STD every year. Half of these infections are in people aged 15 to 24. At particular risk are teenage girls and young women, African-Americans, and men who have sex with men.*

http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/news/20071113/chlamydia-std-rates-soar-in-us

Since taking that sex ed class, I figured that talking to your kids about sex was the only way to go. My WAG is that it’s difficult for many because they wait too long. In that class, the teacher asked what age we thought would be appropriate for starting to talk to kids about their bodies or other sex-related issues. Most thought somewhere between 11-14, something like that.

I said, “Three.” Shock wave in the classroom. I had seen some expert on a talk show who said that because little kids may be touched inappropriately, they need to know that some things are no-nos. Otherwise they can’t tell their parents. He said he talked to kids about their “bathing suit area” being off-limits, so it can be explained without getting uber graphic. The class ended up agreeing with the expert.

If you start talking to them when they’re little, I bet it’s easier. I’d have my 3 year-old child present while bathing the opposite sex baby sib, for instance. That leads naturally to “Boys have a penis; girls have a vagina.” IMO there’s just sooo much information to relay that if you wait till they’re active, the crash course won’t work. And they’re more likely to believe you if it’s bit by bit over the years: wait until they’re hot and heavy for someone, then try to give them guidelines, and they may claim you “just don’t like” this boy/girl.

I’m also afraid that we forget or ignore or avoid or gloss over certain aspects in conversations like this. We like numbers and facts and figures, as well as cool logic, but the reality isn’t on a piece of paper like a geometry problem. There are other components, like the emotional aftermath. It’s YMMV territory and nebulous, but important nonetheless. E.g. a pregnant 16 year-old has a decision to make. Something like…

  1. I can keep the baby but I’ll give up my youth. I can’t finish being a kid—I have to be responsible for this life. Two A.M. feedings, falling asleep in class the next day, ugh.

  2. I can give up the baby for adoption. I’ll probably never see the child again. He’ll have a better life for it, I hope, but a part of me will always be out there, missing.

  3. I can have an abortion. If I go through with that, will I feel like I murdered my baby?

That’s heavy stuff, really awful for a teenager.

The best you can do must be to educate them and then hope/pray.

378

I’m sorry to drag this half-a-train-wreck back from the mostly dead, but I just realized that in 8 pages there was not a single Dinah Moe Hum reference.

What the fuck is this board coming to?