i get a gold star, right?
You make me laugh. I knew you were going to say this or at least think this. I knew before you even thought it what your comment was going to be. However, it doesn’t apply to me because like I explained, my illness, while disabling at the onset, is temporary and I expect to be back to functioning pretty soon when my meds kick in. Besides they’re not my kids, and I don’t have any kids, so it’s a moot point. And if Greg did have custody of the kids, my level of disability wouldn’t matter in the same way as in the hypothetical situation we discussed earlier, which dealt with a situation of a single mother with 6 children, two still in diapers. So not comparable. But thanks anyway for holding your tongue, I appreciate it. 
I do get what you’re trying to say about the nature of children, but then does this mean that all kids of military parents or parents with two jobs grow up resenting that parent? Or that military parents who are deployed overseas have children who are less interested in being with them?
This thread is not about Rumor Watkins. If anyone has a problem with him/her, take it to the Pit – and Rumor, if someone makes personal remarks about you, report the post, don’t respond.
twickster, MPSIMS moderator
No, not necessarily, because the parents are together and the family unit isn’t threatened. But if the parents divorce and the less hands-on parent decides to fight tooth and nail for custody over the parent who has been wiping butts, cooking meals, reading bedtime stories, and waking up in the middle of the night to chase the monsters away…yeah, I think you’ll see resentment start to bubble up. This is a natural reaction.
It seems like you and Greg got utterly blindsided by the effect that the two years of custody warfare ended up having on his relationship with his kids. Certainly I can see why this is disappointing, but it shouldn’t have been unforseen. I hope the possibility of this outcome was thoroughly considered before the paperwork went into motion. But I’m not getting the sense that you did consider it. “The system is biased against fathers!” seems to be the only conclusion you reached after all was said and done. This indicates you lack a full appreciation for what should go into deciding who gets custody. Having a vagina has little to do with it; it’s who does the most butt wiping, etc. The system isn’t biased against mothers; it’s biased toward primary care providers. Can Greg credibly lay claim to him ever serving in this capacity, except during short spurts of visitation?
It is easy and ego-sparing to blame Susan for brainwashing the boys, but they are old enough to form their own impressions. When you explain away their loyalty to their mother by citing her lax disciplinary skills and other indulgent behavior, all you’re doing is arrogantly dismissing these kids’ emotions and intelligence; and don’t delude yourself into thinking they can’t pick up on this. In your mind, everybody who has looked at this case and made a decision that goes against your wishes is crazy, wrong, and biased. What is the likelihood that everyone except you has got it all wrong, though? I’m not saying it’s impossible, just very unlikely. By your reaction to disagreement in this thread, it doesn’t seem like you’re willing to consider any storyline that doesn’t star Greg as a victim battling against an unjust world. Maybe he is a victim of circumstance and bad decisions early in youth–just like most of us are in some form or fashion–but he’s not victim of the system. Neither are his kids, to be honest.
All I can suggest is to stop being so convinced in you and Greg’s rightness. You’re nursing a grudge that isn’t doing anyone any good and in fact, its pulling you down with negative emotion. This isn’t even your life and you’re reacting to it as though you have as much stake in this as Greg does; noble perhaps, but a little unhealthy IMO. I think you let a little time pass before pushing things with the boys. Accept that that they don’t want to visit and don’t try to force the issue. TThe custody battle has left some major wounds on them. Consider that this also may be why their performance in school is slipping.
Greg can set up email accounts for his kids on his own. They’d probably get a kick out of it if they don’t have any yet. GMail or Yahoo would be good places. He can start writing to them there, send them interesting or funny YouTube links, show them locations he would like them to visit while they’re with him, etc.
Considering my great-aunt is on Facebook and my 92-year-old great-uncle has an e-mail account for years, I’m really surprised that the kids don’t already have e-mail accounts at least. I lobbied for home internet access until my parents finally agreed back in 1997, when the list of cool stuff you could do online was a hell of lot shorter than it is now.
The problem, as I mentioned before, is their access to a computer. Here’s what I said earlier:
It really is odd. I believe that Susan is using the computers for herself. She is online a lot, updating Facebook constantly, and I doubt she could afford to buy a computer herself, so it’s reasonable to believe she is using the laptops. And, when Greg gave them the most recent laptop, he did set up a Gmail account for them. They have never used it. As to why they won’t tell Greg where the computers are or why they aren’t using them (and he has asked many times) I think it’s because they don’t want to tattle on their mother, they’re protecting her.
Also I know they like computers because whenever they are with us, they ask to use our computers constantly.
It strikes me as weird because most 14-15 year olds I know love Facebook and are always on, so why isn’t Greg’s oldest, at least, getting online? It worries me.
How many times do I have to repeat this? Greg was faced with a nightmare scenario – he found out his kids were living with a child sex offender and the woman who was defending him. I haven’t heard anyone suggest that he should not have taken action in that circumstance, until now. I even started a thread here when it happened if you want more background: Kids’ stepfather arrested for child molestation - what can their father do? (8/14/2008) I mean, I can’t even imagine that it would have been an acceptable possibility for him to have done nothing.
Yes he served in this capacity, he lived with them full time for the first 7, 5 and 3 years of their lives. When he wasn’t at work, he was wiping plenty of butts.
Here’s the thing. So far in the case, the judge has not made any final decision. The case has not been adjudicated yet. The only person in an official capacity that has thoroughly studied the case has been the family therapist for the custody study. That is only one person, not multiple persons, not “everybody.”
Let me take this opportunity to mention (and I am sorry I didn’t mention this before) one reason why I felt the family therapist’s report was biased. This woman had been in Susan’s same exact situation before. She had her first kid at 18 (like Susan), had several more, was then divorced and a single mother (like Susan). She didn’t go to college until her kids were grown and she was in her 40s. She is now in her 50s, so she hasn’t been working in a professional capacity as a therapist very long. Given the therapist’s history, don’t you think there was some increased sympathy for Susan on the therapist’s part? (As for how we know this, the therapist told us her history.)
It is my life in that I care a lot about these children. And I care about their father. And they will most likely be my stepchildren someday soon. And then they will be part of my family for the rest of my life. What happens to them now will affect them, and us, for the rest of their lives. I want to see them succeed in life and what is happening now is jeopardizing that and I can’t help but care. They’re kids, of course I care.
I acknowledge this, however, they have been pretty shielded from the legal stuff. And think of what else has happened in their life in the past couple of years that is closer to home and more likely to have had a greater effect on their school performance: the loss of their stepfather (and yes they know where he went and why), and witnessing their mother’s devastation and related emotion breakdown related to that; 6 moves in the past 2.5 years, and being in multiple schools; the introduction of a new man (Susan’s new boyfriend) into their household just a couple of months after their stepfather left. So while the custody issue does play a role, I think the other events have had a huge effect too.
Yes, most 14-15 year olds love Facebook. However, I’ll bet a good number of them don’t love using it to communicate with their estranged father. It’s easy to put all the blame Susan but I’d wager these kids are using their computers like crazy but not to communicate with Greg, and that’s why they hem and haw when asked about them.
It’s possible but I seriously doubt it. I doubt all three of them would be able to lie about not knowing where the computers are, so seamlessly and repeatedly, especially the youngest.
I am hearing conflicted messages. Many people in this thread have suggested he keep up e-mail communication, then you’re saying they probably would not be interested. So I don’t think there is one correct solution.
Do the boys have cell phones? Greg could call or text them, and the Mom might be less likely to take the phones for her own use. I forget how old the youngest is, but I’m sure he would not be the youngest kid in California with a cell phone. Heck, I’m sure CA has toddlers texting while actually driving.
The Mom might want to set limits as to when and how much the boys can use cell phones, and the kids might lose them (as mine have more than once), but cell phones might be a means of direct communication with the boys. Also, the kids’ school probably has rules limited cell phone use.
nyctea scandiaca, I apologize if this was discussed above - I’ve been skimming this thread. Also, I know I’m doing the “guy think” approach of attempting to solve problems, when what you want, and made very clear you wanted, was emotional support. If you find this unsupportive, just pat my virtual head and tell me I did my best - bless my heart.
nyctea- I don’t have any legal advice to offer but I might have an idea why the boys are saying they don’t want to be with their dad.
When my brother’s now-ex (‘Sue’) was a teen her home life was chaotic. Her mom had ended her fourth (I think) marriage, with several boyfriends in between. Along with the constant upheaval, her mom was verbally abusive to Sue and her younger half-siblings.
Sue’s father found out how bad things had gotten and wanted her to move in with him about three hours away. Sue refused because she was afraid things would get worse for her half-sibs if she wasn’t around to watch out for them. She only went to live with her dad after her former stepfather got full custody of the younger kids.
My uneducated guess is Greg’s boys feel they need to protect/support their younger siblings. Even if they don’t understand that their child support is the family’s only income they probably felt guilty coming back from a fun, stable summer with you guys to realize the younger kids were left out.
Calm down. I’m not suggesting that nothing should have been done. I’m saying that the resulting estrangement and tension that now exists between Greg and the kids should have been anticipated and mentally (at least) prepared for. Regardless of the sex offender, the kids are attached to their mother and Greg has been trying to take them away from her for the last 2 years. It doesn’t take any toxic brainwashing from Susan to make them see Greg as an adversarial figure here.
The way I see it, even if Greg’s attempt to obtain custody were fruitful, he’d still be dealing with some major emotional fallout, potentially worse than what is going on now. The pain of being estranged from his kids would be a hundred fold worse with that estrangement taking place in his own home, right in front of his face. So as hard as it may be to accept, it could be that the status quo is the best of two evils.
Okay, “when he wasn’t at work” is the operative phrase, though. Not to be snarky but he spent a year in Korea. Susan was wiping butts etc. as a full time job and never spent a year overseas.
Then it’s not time to throw in the towel, right? There’s still a chance things can go your way. But I suspect you know what direction the judge is going to lean towards and it’s not in the direction you want, otherwise the tone of this thread would be different, right?
Without knowing more about the therapist, I wouldn’t say this history automatically makes her biased. There are a lot of divorced mothers who had their kids young, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them have read this thread and given you sympathetic responses. If you’re dealing with any middle-aged professional (male or female), there’s a good chance you’re going to be dealing with someone who has this profile, given the rate of divorce out there. And? This doesn’t mean that they can’t do their jobs objectively. At any rate, beyond having her kids at a young age and being divorced and uneducated until late in late, it doesn’t sound like she has that much in common with Susan. Did her ex fight her for custody? Did she get involved with sex offenders or other unshady types? Do you really think she’d turn a blind eye to neglect and suffering?
And this is what I’m talking about. It seems like you’re looking for any and every reason to attribute contradictory opinions to bias. The therapist is wrong because she’s biased. The judge is likely to rule in favor of Susan because he’s biased. The boys don’t want to visit Greg because Susan has biased them against him. And I’m saying, you should probably stop doing this. You might be right–everyone except you might be biased–but rarely are things so cut and dried.
Certain decisions might be made, not because they think Susan is a stellar parent and Greg is a horrible one, but because the threshold for changing custody hasn’t been met.
Oh, I’m not saying the other shit in their lives hasn’t made their lives messy. I’m pretty sure it has. Hopefully when the dust settles for a while, the boys will start doing better in school and will be more receptive towards Greg. I just don’t think that they’re at this point yet because they are still raw about the custody thing.
nyctea scandiaca, I’m really sorry for everything that everyone is going through right now. I admire you and Greg for fighting so hard to keep your relationships with the kids, especially in light of all these difficulties.
I’m going to suggest something that may not work, and certainly won’t work immediately. I’m suggesting it knowing that if I were in your (plural) position, it would really really hard for me to do.
I guess I agree with some other folks in the thread that Susan isn’t a villain. Clearly her judgment isn’t the greatest. However, I can see how from her perspective, Greg has been trying to tear apart her family for years. I’m not saying I agree with her assessment. Maybe she’s causing all this grief for Greg out of hatred and spite for him alone. I suspect, though, that she’s afraid to lose her family. She’s afraid that Greg will offer the boys something with which she won’t be able to compete. I bet that fear is the root of many of the roadblocks she has been erecting.
Well, given that Greg has exhausted his options, perhaps he could try to have a calm conversation with Susan and tell her that he’s done trying to take the boys. (I know, calm conversation, easier said than done, right?) “Susan, I know this custody fight has been stressful for you. It’s been stressful for me. I’m done. I want you to know that.”
If there’s something that he’s sorry about, ie “I know these past few years have been difficult for you. I’m sorry for that.” (I am NOT saying he should apologize for doing what he believed was right. Just that he could acknowledge her feelings and say he’s sorry for the difficulties she’s encountered.)
I guess there’s a fine line between being a doormat and being a genuinely strong person who can build someone else up while that person does their darnedest to tear you back down. But if Greg can be that strong person, if he can find something to admire, or heck, just something to SAY he admires in Susan, to Susan, that could be the first step toward assuaging her fear that the “Cool Dad” is going to swoop in a take her family from her. And that might help her eventually to stop viewing him as the enemy. Which would help everybody.
nyctea,
You have my sympathies with the liver ailment. My SIL was diagnosed with primary biliary cirhosis in her late teens. She had a liver transplant in her early 30’s.
At some point I think you have to let your anger over the custody issues go.
My BIL has been in a nasty divorce with his wife for the last few years. He has four children. My BIL’s wife cut us out of the family because my husband refused to take her side. She was one of my best friends. Now she won’t speak to me because she’s afraid I’ll tell anything she says to my husband and he will tell his brother. Consequently we have not seen his kids in over two years. She fights with him over all kinds of custody arrangements and will not him bring them to our house when he sees them for a short time frame. I miss them desperately. They are my daughter’s only first cousins. The youngest is only eleven months older than my little girl. The oldest is sixteen. I think of them every single day of the year with great sorrow.
Greg may just has to face the fact that he did the best he could and move on. My BIL never stops talking about his evil ex-wife. The truth is that there always two people and two sides involved in any custody case. If things are as bad as you say then one day the kids will learn the truth. You may simply have to settle for that understanding.
These are not conflicting messages, these are facts: Greg should keep trying to communicate with his children, and the kids may not be interested. There is a possibility that this is not because Susan is denying them access to a computer or a telephone, but because they’re upset that Greg spent two years trying to take them from their mother and their step-siblings, isn’t there?
**you with the face **is making some excellent points that you should consider.
If I could edit my last post I would, because my question was already answered and the four posts above mine are awesome. I wish you and Greg the best of luck, nyctea scandiaca.
I honestly don’t know. I’m not the child of a military parent - my dad’s a doctor - but I do have an anecdote for you. (It’s worth the paper it’s printed on. ;))
Like I said, Dad’s a doctor. He was gone a lot at work when I was growing up. Not overseas or anything, but he worked regular hours at his practice, had hospital rounds every morning and evening, then was on-call or at the hospital many nights and weekends caring for his patients.
My older brother (6 years older than me) resents him for it. Dad missed a lot of school functions, a lot of band programs, a lot of extra-curriculars. My brother felt he simply wasn’t there for a lot of his childhood, and he wishes for that lost time. I think he carries some anger for his “absent father,” even though they have a good relationship.
Me? I don’t feel that way, at all. I feel I had the same upbringing as my brother, but it’s true that we moved from an urban center to a rural location when I was 6. I don’t remember much of our time before the move; my father worked at a much larger practice there and it’s possible there were even more demands on his time then. Perhaps it’s this “urban” time - that I don’t remember much of, but that would’ve been a formative time for my brother - that he remembers Dad being gone so much and that’s the time he resents. I don’t know. I never felt like Dad didn’t have time for me, even though I feel he didn’t have any better attendance at my school functions than he did at my brother’s. I guess I just understood and accepted that Dad couldn’t make it; I didn’t resent the fact that he didn’t. I never felt he was actively not attending; I always felt it was beyond his control. I don’t really know what makes my experience different from my brother’s, I just know that it is.
I will say this, however: I know that my brother resents his “absent father,” yet I see him making many of the same “mistakes” that he blames my father for. My brother **is **in the military, and for much of his son’s first two or three years, he was gone for months at a time, deployed to Qatar. He’s since adjusted things so that he’s home all the time and working a desk job (which he doesn’t like much), but he’s also frequently sending my nephew to my mother for weeks at a time. While it’s certainly true that my mother loves her grandson and loves having him, it’s worrying to me for a while there that my nephew didn’t really know who his father was, calling any man “Daddy.” (Once, even my brother-in-law, which was strange.) I know he loves his son, but my brother just doesn’t seem to *care *about him much, you know? It’s very odd to me.
Anyway, that’s my anecdote. I’m really sorry for your frustration, and I hope that you and Greg can find a way to work towards more happiness soon.
You’d know something about that.