Father's quest for his kids goes down in flames; advice (and sympathy) requested

Susan’s unemployed. Doesn’t seem to have harmed her custody case at all.

Yeah, well, it’s not working out *now, *either, no matter how much money he’s making, is it? (And no, I don’t buy that Greg, with tech experience, university & military credentials, can’t find a job anywhere on the West coast.)

And again, fairly or not, the fact that Greg pays child support is not going to weigh higher with his kids than the fact that he’s never around.

But I’ve said what I have to say and I won’t keep banging on about it.

I have nothing useful to add. however I do hope that even if things turn out badly now, maybe once the kids are in their 20s they will have a chance to reconnect with their father.

But yeah, that is bad. A convicted sexual assaulter (with multiple victims) and a woman who has no income are given preference when it comes to child rearing. I’m glad I don’t have kids.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I didn’t realize with my first advice that he was on the other side of the country. That really changes things and in her last thread I did advocate her leaving him if all options were exhausted.

Obviously I still wish the mother died in a freak accident - that would reunite Greg with the kids with the least resentment. She still does inspire me - but I don’t have to live that life every day, often coming second in importance to these kids far away. If it were me, I’d leave.

She’s the mother. Case closed as far as the courts are concerned.

And for those advocating Greg moving back to the west coast: I think it is highly probabe that if Greg actually did this, after about 30 minutes, Susan would be packing the 6.5 kids and unemployed bum boyfriend up, and moving several thousand miles away.

She has a meal ticket, and she’s not about to risk it all if the kids learn that Greg is not a monster.

This. She has gone to great lengths over the years to prevent Greg from seeing his kids. See my previous post about how Greg had to get a court order to force Susan to allow the summer visitation to take place. And even then she was refusing to take the kids to the airport. She has always made visitation difficult even when she was living on the east coast a year and a half ago. The initial agreement was that Susan would meet Greg halfway to exchange the kids, about 2.5 hour drive. She refused to follow through and every time Greg had to take time off, do the whole drive himself and pay for hotel lodgings. So I have every reason to believe that the she would continue the same interference if we were closer.

Just to play devil’s advocate, what reason would she have to move? Why would her meal ticket disappear just because the father moved closer?

From what I can tell all that would be achieved if he moved closer is he could have a more active part in their lives just because his proximity would probably result in the court giving him more frequent (but shorter duration) visitation. Now, that has great value from an emotional perspective, because honestly kids don’t place a lot of importance on the sort of support that child support payments give.

Him moving closer would not get him out of child support, and the most likely reason a judge hasn’t awarded him custody is simply because the mother has always been the primary caregiver. What a lot of people involved in family court affairs fail to realize is there is a wide range of things that parents do differently, and generally unless you can get a judge to truly agree the parent is causing material harm to the child (and not just parenting in a way you consider to be substandard) the primary caregiver is always going to win primary custody.

Things that some people think are the most important thing in the world, like making sure the kids do well in school, making sure the kids do more than just play video games and et cetera usually won’t be grounds for someone losing custody of their children. That’s really how a court looks at things, way back when it initially granted custody to the mother, the court took the position that the mother was the primary caregiver for the child. In the mind’s of many family court judges, unless the mother’s actions would actually result in the child being removed from the home sans other parent, it’s unlikely the court is going to effectively revoke an earlier custody agreement.

Based on this thread Susan wouldn’t lose her children to CPS if she was a single mother with no father in the picture at all, nor has she lost her children in this case because while she may not be a “great” mother, that isn’t the standard a court uses to determine custody.

During the lives of many children, parents suitability for parenting may change. For example say a couple gets divorced and the mother is the primary caregiver but is college educated, has excellent parenting skills and a steady part time income. The father makes more money but was less involved in raising the children, such a situation would of course result in the mother having custody with the father getting visitation. Now imagine a few years later the mother has a string of bad relationships with abusive men and she gets depressed. Her parenting skills suffer and her kids get bad grades in school and stay up playing video games. At this point should the father get custody? What if later down the road the father loses his job and starts dating a woman who has a criminal record, while the mother gets her life back together? Should the kids go back to the mom? Well, what if the mom falls back into depression or gets with another abusive man? Back to the dad?

See, we don’t want family courts constantly evaluating two parents and saying “well, A + B + C > F, so this time around custody goes to the father.” While it creates heartache it’s much more in the interest of “children and families” as a whole to only change primary custody and thus the primary caregiver of a child when absolutely necessary. Variations in quality of parenting, as long as it doesn’t enter into neglect or something that would get social services involved, shouldn’t change established custody agreements.

Because he would have a greater proportion of parenting time, he would be required to pay less child support. The amount of parenting time is part of the calculation formula for child support.

Martin thank you for your well thought-out post, you make a lot of really good points.

In response to this and other comments saying Greg would have nothing to lose by quitting his job and moving to California. There’s another aspect at play here.

Forgive me for my poor explanation, since I am not a lawyer, but it is my general understanding that when considering how much child support a parent should pay, the court takes into account his/her “earning potential” and whether or not he is “underemployed.” So if a father has demonstrated that he has the ability to earn, say $100,000 a year, and has done so for several years straight, then if he all of a sudden takes a job paying $50,000, the other parent can allege that he has intentionally become underemployed, and the court can still force him to pay the same amount he was paying when he had the $100,000 job.

Susan has threatened this before, several times, for example a few years ago when Greg was thinking about going to graduate school and working a part-time job. She told him that she would not stand for it and would make sure her lawyer blocked his request for readjustment of child support. Nice, huh?

I didn’t presume that he would necessarily have more parenting time if he was closer, he could just be more involved in their lives. He would have to obtain a change in the custody agreement to get increased time with his children, moving would not automatically lead to more (legally mandated) contact.

I doubt moving thousands of miles just to avoid a moderate reduction in child support payments would make financial sense for her. Even if she was a totally irrational actor, though, courts revisit custody arrangements based on the custodial parent choosing to move. If the move was for no reason other than “spite” it could definitely end up working out a lot worse for the mother than just staying around. If a court has determined x amount of contact with the non-custodial parent is to the child’s benefit, it will not lightly view the custodial parent moving a great distance for the explicit purpose of reducing contact with the custodial parent.

I can’t feel too sorry for him on the graduate school deal, parents are expected to keep their children provided for even if they go back to school. Having kids at a young age will sometimes mean missing out on things, and that’s true even for married persons.

Now, if he just said to hell with it and went back to school and took a part time job, the reality is the mother would have little practical recourse. She’s correct he would probably be unable to reduce his obligation, but sans physical capital to pay it, he would slowly accumulate owed child support. That can go on for years (sometimes decades) before anything can be done about it, and it requires constant action by the custodial parent to get anything done. Now, it doesn’t sound like Greg is the type of person to do that, but it also isn’t the case that the custodial parent is able to essentially mandate what the non-custodial parent does with their life. Yes, they can keep that child support obligation at its original rate, but good luck actually milking that stone.

Wouldn’t there also be a difference in taking a same-skill-level job for less pay due to regional differences, versus taking a job at McDonald’s that simply paid less?

I wonder if, because of the formula, some optimization could be done - a closer, lower-paying job combined with lower child support = something workable? The lower child support being because of the formula mentioned in post #107.

Well if we did live there, we would have them at least every weekend, just like we did when we did live there. During the summer we had them even more often.

I believe she would, she is the epitome of an irrational actor.

I’ve heard many stories of fathers who have been laid off, who were denied child support modifications, whose arrears racked up, and who are put in jail for failure to pay. And their arrears keep adding up even while in jail.

Wow, this is so unfair. As if he could have seen then what we know now. He spent $20,000 because he loves his kids and wanted them to have a good life and wanted them to be with him. Sure is easy to say NOW what he should have done with that money. And, no, I live in California and I know where they live (at least I know all the cities that are an hour from Sacramento) and, no, he most likely would not have a job. So yay, everyone can be on welfare. I think this thread is taking a strange turn. He thought she was going to move to the East Coast and so he took that job. He could move to California and she could move to Florida the next day. Obviously. There is no guarantee that being in California would keep him close to them. I second Shayna’s advice – and I know it sounds like he is already trying to do those things – and I say, just keep trying. Hugs.

And, yeah, see if you can get her arrested.

Just to be honest with yourself, how much of this resistance to Greg moving out west is because YOU simply don’t want to move? I wouldn’t blame you, but it might be coloring the view a bit.

Federal Government jobs in CA

Search for higher paying - information tech jobs has a few that have an upper pay range of 90+ thousand. I doubt he’d have to go on welfare, tesseract.

eta: besides, it’ll be easier to get her arrested if you’re close by. :stuck_out_tongue:

Yeah, I don’t blame you for not wanting to move - it would be a major, massive pain in the ass for potentially small rewards - but the idea that there are no federal jobs in California seems…weird, to me.

I have nothing to do with it. In fact, I moved out to California and lived there for a year and a half before we moved to Virginia for his job. So clearly I have already demonstrated a willingness to move for him.

As far as jobs, I don’t doubt that there are some jobs that he could get in California. But they would not be equivalent to what he is doing now. Without getting into too much identifying detail, he works for a specific agency in a very specific and specialized program that does not exist in California. And when he entered this program, he gave a 3-year minimum commitment. Frankly I can’t believe people are still seriously suggesting that he move. The cons far outweigh the pros. It just seems like a blame-the-victim mentality that I see often here on the Dope, when someone comes looking for sympathy or advice, people love to pile on and nag at one detail, saying if you don’t do this one (outrageous) thing, then you must not really care… Seen it here before hundreds of times.

I’d say that at this point if someone suggests moving, they haven’t read the thread.

Read the freaking thread before you give advice, folks. :mad: She moved away from him.

Frankly, if he moves to be near his kids, I would bet greater than even odds that she moves again. She sounds like the kind of person who would do it just to yank his chain.

You and Greg have my sympathy, nyctea scandiaca. Is there any way to call Child Protective Services on her? Do a background check on the new guy to make sure he isn’t also a criminal?

Cite? I believe that could only really happen if you got laid off and then didn’t communicate with the court at all, or you refused any attempts to find gainful employment. People aren’t incarcerated for failure to pay child support until years and years and years have passed. It also requires a custodial parent that is willing to pretty much live inside the court system for 5-6 years.

I can see you getting jailed in those rare circumstances; but I’d eat my shoe if you have a case where a person gets laid off, tries to modify their child support agreement (is denied) and despite trying to find work cannot and who is then jailed for failure to pay.

No. Parenting time/visitation and child support are SEPARATE issues. His support is based on his income and her income. By the way, did you attempt to have her income inputted to show what she would make if she worked? She should be able to make minimum wage in the workforce. You apparently know about voluntary underemployment so I would think you would know about this as well.

Is he is paying his support through California or another state’s registry? If he’s paying through California, have it moved to where you are living immediately…the case follows the absentee parent. Please tell me he is not paying her directly! California has very screwed up child support rules, you do not want to be involved in that shit and you can avoid it.

You’re right about her moving. She loves to move. In the past 5 years, she has moved at least 10 times. In one school year alone, the kids were in 3 different schools. There is never any rational reason for her move. Sometimes it’s because she gets in a fight with her mother and she moves to stick it to her mother. Other times it’s because she finds a bigger house or apartment for cheaper rent in another town, and she wants a nicer place. She has nothing to tie her down to any specific town because she doesn’t h ave a job. She seems to not care about moving the kids in and out of different schools.

Also, like I have said multiple times before, even when we were close, she made visitations difficult as hell. For example she won’t ever meet halfway to exchange kids, or drive them over. It’s always Greg that has to do all the driving.

Regarding the boyfriend, we tried to do a criminal background check but she would not give us his full name. His first and last name are EXTREMELY common, so without any other details, it was impossible to do a background check.