i’m reading the team trump filing… are they seriously using this as an argument and site? page 3 and other spots.
Specifically, under Judicial Watch, backed by decades of practice by NARA under the
PRA, and consistent with the history of former Presidents and government officials retaining
classified records when they leave office, “an outgoing president’s decision to exclude what he/she
considers to be personal records from presidential records transmitted to [NARA] constitutes a
president’s categorization of those records as personal under the PRA.
They are seriously using that as an argument. It’s not completely made up, but it is butchered beyond recognition and idiotic.
The main way this argument gets abused is not distinguishing between “marked classified” documents and classified information. Those two things get used interchangeably (technically yes, it’s classified information).
Also, Presidents and VPs take home marked classified documents. It’s not uncommon. It’s not right and can be criminal when done wilfully, etc.
Presidents and VPs also take home classified info in the form of diaries. You write some stuff, some is personal, some might be tip over into classified info. This is also not uncommon.
Trump takes that, and argues that his decision to not give marked classified documents to NARA automatically means they magically turned into personal records. Because others did it. None of that is remotely true. Others have not done that nor claimed marked classified is personal. And Trump has never claimed these were personal records because marked classified records cannot be personal records. It’s all so stupid.
Anyways, I’ve now read the briefs and am no closer to knowing what will happen now than I was before I read them. Only that Jack said he might seek mandamus on this issue (which is different than an appeal), but I have no idea how he could do that without Cannon doing…something. Mandamus requires less than a final appealable order/ruling, but it does require some final decision that would cause DOJ a legal harm. I don’t think asking lawyers to brief hypo jury instructions is that type of harm.
It’s doesn’t appear the system was designed well to stop Judges from really helping Defendants.
I heard Meryl’s devil wears Prada voice while reading the us filing. The cerulean monologue. just slice, slice, slice, with very, very, sharp legal words.
I suspect that Biden has classified documents sitting right now in one or both of his Delaware homes, even though that’s against the rules for any non-VIP government employee. And I think he knows it AKA it’s willful. Maybe it is legal because a special facility has been built in his house(s). If I had one of these VIP jobs, I would think it important not to waste taxpayer money like that.
I think that Trump is worse here, and, anyway, selective prosecution is not a criminal defense. But if Biden was charged, I’d probably feel the way she does. Is this case really being slow-walked worse than other Espionage Act cases where the defendant refused to plea bargain?
The outcome of this case would be a bad reason to change who you were planning to vote for in November. This isn’t to say that Trump should get away with everything. In my moral universe, Alvin Bragg’s charges are much more serious.
You don’t think that after Biden contacted NARA to let them know he found some and voluntarily allowed the FBI to conduct a (12 hour) search to see if there were any more? They found some, but you still think there’s more?
It wasn’t legal when Biden did it. It wasn’t legal when Pence did it. It wasn’t an issue because they contacted NARA when they found them and handed them over.
This whole mess would have been avoided if, upon being contacted about the documents, Trump said ‘oops, my bad’ and let NARA retrieve them, that would have been the end of it. No court case, no “witch hunts” etc.
Kinda makes me wonder if he kept them on purpose, at least in part, to create this long, drawn out court case that he could spin as ‘election interference’
I was thinking of recent documents. Biden commonly spends weekends in Delaware. If he was following the normal government employee rules, he could not bring classified materials into his privately owned residences, greatly impairing his ability to work weekends.
So that raises a question about security procedures: Secret Service protection.
Biden’s residence is surely surrounded by guards who check every guest. What was the Secret Service prorection at Mar a lago, after Trump was no longer in office?
Having guards around the perimeter doesnt fully excuse Biden, because not all his guests (or his wife) had clearances to see top secret documents. But it does at least add some level of security. What was the situation at Mar a Lago?
I suspect the reason this happens is because Presidents and VPs (and to a lesser extent members of Congress) are considered working right up to the wire, when their staff sweep in and scoop everything rapidly into boxes to take away. That government documents (classified and non-classified) get scooped up as well isn’t a surprise, as even with the best will in the world they can’t review every single sheet of paper in the timeframe alloted (although why there isn’t a process for review before these things go into personal storage, I don’t know).
And as pointed out, once identified the normal procedure followed by EVERYONE ELSE BUT TRUMP is to say “Hey, I found some documents I shouldn’t have - please come get them and feel free to check for others”. It is not to refuse to return them, show them to Kid Rock and/or ignore subpoenas.
Are you saying that President Biden is willfully taking classified documents to his house in Delaware? That link seems to be unrelated. I don’t see anything in it regarding that. Can you quote the parts you’re referring to or is that just a cite to prove he spends weekends at home? Regardless, from the Hur report:
Mr. Biden was allowed to have classified documents in his home for eight years as vice president.
Mr. Biden was allowed to have the Afghanistan documents in his home for eight years as vice president. And when the documents were discovered in his home in December 2022, he was again allowed to have them there as president.
Do you have a cite showing he has willfully taken classified documents to his DE home in the past 3 years?
And for that specific reason, when we have these conversations, when applicable, I try to group Pence in with Biden. Because the Biden and Pence investigations kinda fizzled out without a whole lot of media attention since they followed the rules, I think people forget that Trump’s own VP isn’t facing any of the scrutiny that Trump is dealing with. If any of this was simply the result of the “Biden’s DOJ” targeting Trump, it seems odd that they wouldn’t also be targeting Pence.
Here’s the Hur report, I feel like I may have seeing something about that when I was looking for the quotes, but it’s almost 400 pages long and I don’t feel like picking through it again.
I did, however, find this gem:
Just as a person who destroys evidence and lies often proves his guilt, a person who produces evidence and cooperates will be seen by many to be innocent.
The quote (mostly unrelated to the specific documents discussion) is good on it’s own, it’s still slightly anti-Biden.
While it implies that Trump will “prove his guilt” it only says that Biden will “be seen by many to be innocent”, which IMO implies guilt.
Upon rereading I should have been more clear. I meant Ex-Presidents and VPs. They take (or keep) classified docs at home and it could potentially be illegal.
The current President can do what he wants. So Biden right now can take documents home no problem. I’m sure there are protocols to be followed, but at the end of the day he is the President. Presidents and VPs can do things mere mortals cannot.
I’d be very suprised if the current POTUS’s home is not a secure zone in every aspect. Like I’d be certain that even when he isn’t physically at his home in Deleware that there are security measures in place as part of the protect the President mandate.
As I recall, Mar-a-lago had room(s) for securing classified documents while Trump was POTUS. And that the Secret Service removed the security storage facilities after Trump left office. I think this was mentioned in the indictment.
This is correct. There is a room(s) with everything the President needs to do in a secure environment. Backup power, electronic shielding, secure communications, secure storage, etc… Been that way for all presidents in the electronic age.
The stuff isn’t scattered around in a bathroom or shown off at a golf course.
Same with GW Bush’s Texas ranch, when he was president.
I do not think that securing government secrets, while it would be nice, is among the most important presidential duties. But taking secret documents home does create unnecessary government expense if done correctly (setting up the SCIF) and, as we have seen with both Biden and Trump, there’s a good chance it won’t be done correctly. As for Biden returning months or years old documents on request, while Trump hides them, yes this makes Trump worse. But by the time Biden gave those documents back, any real secrets in them were probably outdated. The most important time to return all documents was the day they left office. If they are not organized enough to do that, they should never take documents home. So I can see how Aileen Cannon looks at the initial, most important, period of time when they retained secret documents after leaving office, and sees the Trump case as selective prosecution. She’s not totally wrong there.
As for the presidents, if they don’t want to live in the White House (Trump said it is a dump), do not take the job. Same for vice-presidents and their government-provided house. If on travel, use pre-existing government housing, such as in an embassy or military base.
This case is not a good reason to vote against Trump, and was never going to stop his re-election. Even if Trump is, by some miracle, convicted before Election Day, swing voters will reasonably think what Trump did is too close to what Biden did to determine their vote.
I mean, the White House has tunnels that connect to underground bunkers designed to withstand nuclear attack. I doubt that any President’s private residence includes that level of security.
But they’re certainly secured to the extent possible, and that’s almost certainly enough for what’s relevant to this conversation.
