If elucidator is allowed to use ‘logic’ to say any real pedophilia would have been purged from the records, I can use logic to say that Muslims as a whole support terrorism more than other people (links have been provided in other threads), so it is likely that Muslims in America would follow that trend. Or are you suggesting that someone just gets off the plane in America and every cultural, religious, and dogmatic thought is purged at that moment? Unlikely.
It’s a little more complicated than that(this sentence isn’t meant as criticism).
What the hadiths(or ahadith for the pedants) are are collections of sayings that are associated with either the Prophet(Muhammad) or his companions and that have been deemed “authentic”(I.E. the ones attributed to Aisha are deemed to have been spoken by Aisha).
Now Muslims take them seriously because they are ordered in the Quran to “obey God and obey his Prophet” so they are to treat a command delivered in a Hadith by Muhammad the same as one from the Quran.
Now, the problem that Muslims and Islamophobes like Uzi ignore is that the Hadiths were “collected” generations and in some cases centuries after the people died and it would take a real “leap of faith”, to choose an apt phrase, to believe that anyone can say that the hadiths/ahadith can truly be classified as authentic.
In fact, the hadiths frequently contradict each other in fairly dramatic ways.
For example, Uzi keeps referring to her as being 9, but ignores(or more likely is completely ignorant of) the fact that the hadiths are hardly in agreement on her age.
Yes, hadiths attributed to her from, IIRC correctly, both Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Al-Muslim do quote Aisha saying she married Muhammad when she was 9.
However other hadiths, not collected 150 years after Aisha’s death say that all of Abu Bakr’s children were born prior to Muhammad hearing the call. Since Muhammad heard the call in 610 CE and married Aisha in 622 CE she would have had to been at least 12 and more likely older. Also she participated on some caravan rides and battles soon after marrying Muhammad that she wouldn’t have been allowed to participate in were she only 9 or 10.
For that reason most scholars conclude that she was most likely in her early teens if not older.
Now obviously most of us find the idea of a 13, 14, or 15 year old girl getting married, but up until recently it was generally thought that girls and boys could be married as soon as they went through puberty. That’s why no one batted an eyelash when Shakespeare had Juliet getting married to a significantly older man(Paris) on her parents orders. Similarly, you’ll notice that Jane Swidden having one of the Bennett daughters getting married to a much older man at 15 or 14(I don’t remember which) didn’t shock people(at least not on account of age.
Remember people used to die off much earlier and they didn’t have the same concept of adolescence, the period between adulthood and childhood we have now.
No, Aisha was almost certain in her early teens when she married Muhammad(see my above post). Also, yes, I’ve read the play and as you can see from my earlier post I was referring to the Capulets’ plan to marry Juliet off at 13. So yes, the analogy works.
Prior to modern times and the development of adolescence teenage girls regularly got married at ages that we would find appalling.
Anyway, I think we’re largely in agreement.
Incidentally Uzi,
It’s obvious you’re not interested in serious debate and know nothing of Islam despite your claims to have spent time in a Muslim country since the last we spoke you ranted about Muslims brainwashing children via sleep deprivation, hunger, and thirst.
That said, wikipedia is a shitty source, particularly on Islam-related topics.
If you wish to look like you know what you’re talking about rather than a troll who can link to wikipedia, I’d recommend finding better sources.
For the record, I am not an Islamophobe. If anything, I am a religophobe. I hate all religions equally, some more than others.
I am aware that some Hadiths are considered more accurate than others. Which ones do you think places like Yemen and Saudi are basing their lack of marriage age limits on? Seems like they don’t have a problem determining which ones are the ‘real’ hadiths and should be followed.
“leap of faith”. Are you saying that all Christians have to take a real leap of faith to believe what they do as all the New Testament was written years after the fact? Well, at least Jesus didn’t go around raping babies, plundering caravans and slaughtering Jews. He’s got that going for him.
So you think that Muhammad “raped babies” but you insist you’re not an Islamophobe?
Uh-huh.
You did notice that the link I posted from wikipedia linked to news sources that you can easily verify by doing a search on the net?
A dissertation about the age of Aisha
Note that Aisha herself says she was married at 6 and consummated the marriage at 9. I think you are being rather loose with your facts if you say that only the more unreliable Hadiths record this when it is listed in both the 1st, 2nd and 4th of the six major collections.
Yet, it is only relatively recently that people have attempted to dispute what she said, or what was recorded. I wonder why?
Reading for comprehension is your friend. Try again.
My, your google-Fu skills are impressive. It almost gives one the impression that you know what you’re talking about before running it by
In case anyone actually cares about the truth and what the Hadith says, or what Aisha says, here is the link to what Sahih Bukhari collected: Link
Note that this is the hadith that is considered the most authentic of all the hadiths. Sahih Muslim, the 2nd most important hadith says essentially the same thing. Sunnan Abu Dawud makes reference to her being married at 9.
That is what the hadiths actually say. Any reference to another age comes from ignoring what is actually written and going through mental gymnastics to come up with something else. That’s the debate. Depends on which bullshit you want to believe.
My your Google-Fu skills are quite impressive. They might give one the impression you know shat you’re talking about.
Unfortunately, you then wreck it by referring to the “1st, 2nd, 4rth, and 6th” collections as if that’s how Muslims classified them. Next time try reciting the names(I.E. Sahih Al-Bukhari). You’ll look less like an Internet troll pretending to be a knowledgable expert on Islam who’s lived in Muslim countries.
Anyway, for those interested, the Hadiths are quite contradictory with some suggesting she was 9 while others suggest she was much older. Those which are attributed to her which say she was nine upon consumation were collected generations after she’d died and it would require a large leap of faith to believe that she made the statements attributed to her.
You’re a better man than me if you have all this stuff memorized. Yet the internet is our friend. While it can baffle us with bullshit and it can cut through much of it to the truth, too. If you’re persistent enough to dig through the mess that is. Try doing a search on 5 58 234 and find something most would consider non-partisan.
Er, you claimed
That would certainly seem to imply that you thought Muhammad “raped babies”.
See, now you’re just lying. You know full well that Sahih Al-Bukhari’s is the most regarded Hadith. And that Sahih Muslim is considered 2nd to it. And it doesn’t take a Muslim scholar to make that determination, just a little bit of that googlefu you seem to disregard, or assume people are too stupid to look up the fact themselves rather than just blindly take your word for it. I still note that in all these discussions that I am the only one who seems to cite what I’m saying while you and guys like elucidator spout your wishful opinions.
3 of the major hadiths state categorically that she was no more than 9 years old when the marriage was consummated. Sucks to be you having to defend them and the religion that gave rise to the debate.
Better ask elucidator why they didn’t purge the pedophilic entries from the record rather than leave them in for over a 1000 years and it is only recently that anyone is questioning them. Well, other than they didn’t think it was out of line, I guess.
My mistake, 9 year olds are technically ‘children’. That better? Got anymore nits to pick now that you’ve run out of actual arguments?
Thanks for clearing that up.
Oh my God, I nearly pissed myself laughing at this.
You think “Sahih Bukhari” was a person.
Muhammad Ibn Ismail Al-Bukhari was a respected scholar. “Sahih” roughly translates as “authentic”.
“Sahih Al-Bukhari” refers to the collection of hadiths/ahadith that he determined to be “authentic” as opposed to those he found to be questionable(da’if). That’s why you’ll occasionally see references to Da’if Al-Bukari or Da’if Muslim.
Now what Uzi is either ignoring or, more likely, is completely ignorant of, is that according to other hadiths/ahadith, Aisha was much older when she and Muhammad wed.
For example, as I mentioned earlier, according to another, all of Abu Bakr’s(Aisha’s father) children were born prior to Muhammad hearing the call(610 CE) which would mean Aisha was older than nine when she was married in 622 CE.
The fact is that most of the Hadiths/Ahadith are contradictory and Uzi and other Islamophobes are merely cherry-picking the ones that fit their world view.
It might be interesting to some people to note what the Catholic Encyclopedia says in its article on the Virgin Mary:
"Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances. The marriage was preceded by the betrothal, after which the bride legally belonged to the bridegroom, though she did not live with him till about a year later, when the marriage used to be celebrated. All this well agrees with the language of the Evangelists. St. Luke (i, 27) calls Mary “a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph”; St. Matthew (i, 18) says, “when as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost”.
So if Mary was a typical Jewish girl, who could be betrothed at age 11 and a half, she could very easily have been pregnant before she was 12.
So I guess God is a pedophile. I leave it to the experts to calculate the actual age difference between Yahweh and Mary at the time he impregnated her, but if I remember my set theory correctly, infinity - 11 is infinity.
You’re revealing your ignorance even more. Sahih Muslim is not “a Hadith” nor is Sahih Muslim.
Sahih Muslim merely refers to the collection of hundreds if not thousands(I forget the actual number) of hadiths/ahadith collected by Muslim Ibn Al-Hajjaj that he deemed to be “authentic”.
Similarly, Sahih Al-Bukhari refers not to one Hadith but to all the hundreds if not thousand if hadiths/ahadith collected by Muhammad Ibn Ismail Al-Bukhari that he deemed to be “authentic.”
In truth, the various hadiths collected by both men are wildly contradictory and there’s little reason to believe that they can be said to have recorded the actual utterances of the Prophet or his companions other than either blind faith or blind hatred.
So, you are denying that there are Muslim countries that think these hadiths are ‘accurate’ enough to justify marrying off their children? You are denying that half of the 6 major collections of the hadiths are not contradictory about her age at all? He married her when she was 6 and burst her cherry at 9. Gah, how you dance around the obvious to defend the indefensible. That maybe the declared age is the accurate version and all the other explanations have been created to fix the problem that a little white out or sticking a 1 in front of both numbers could have resolved a long time ago yet no one saw the need until recently.