Fear and Loathing In Bagdad

[AncientHumanoid]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Why do Americans always seem to think that American lives are more special than any other lives?

Did anyone actually say that in this thread?

Sure, I cited a news item about Americans, being an American myself. 500 seemed to be a fairly grizzly milestone. If I were from another country, I might not have taken as keen notice as I did. Nor possibly would I have if the news story were about another nation’s armed forces. Being an American, I noticed this story about Americans.

But… in what way does that show that I value the lives of others less?

Go ahead and flame me for my American-centric point of view, but don’t make assumptions about my value judgements.

For the record, I’m learning to value ALL human life. As I’ve pointed out in earlier threads, I came to realise the true horror of anyone’s involvement (esp unwillingly) in war when watching the footage of Serbian refugees some few years ago. It finally hit me that those aren’t just statistics, they’re people. A human born into a different system of government, religion, etc… There but for the grace of God and all that, right?

So, am I predjudiced? Hell yeah, I probably am. So, go ahead and flame away at me for valueing the lives of the American Soldier.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Creative_Munster

I have very little doubt that you believe American lives are worth less than Iraqi lives. From your posts, I get the distinct impression that you have little regard for anything American.

Either provide some support for this garbage or shut the fuck up, asshole.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Gomez

Diogenes

I think that’s simple ethnocentrism. Human nature simply makes it far easier to feel for people we can imagine knowing IRL. I reckon most people the world over are like that.

As you’ve probably ascertained from my above posts and the GD thread I’ve linked too (which seems to be dying so quit wasting time and post in it goddamn it ) I’ve a lot of sympathy with the Iraqi’s but even so it’s easier for me to sympathise with my own countrymen.

Academically, I’m sure very few reasonable people would assert that Americans are intrinsically worthy of more respect than Iraqi’s. That doesn’t necessarily make it difficult to sympathise more with, say, a lone GI killed on the same day as an innocent Iraqi.

It sounds like you recognize that the impulse is irrational and tribalistic. So why not rise above it?

[Creative_Munster]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Either provide some support for this garbage or shut the fuck up, asshole.

Your entire posting history is my cite, fuckhead.

[Revtim]

@Creative_Munster

I have very little doubt that you believe American lives are worth less than Iraqi lives. From your posts, I get the distinct impression that you have little regard for anything American.

Congratulations, I think you the first person intelligent enough to find this board, yet so flaming ignorant to believe the “If you criticize Bush and/or the war you hate America” canard.

Maybe if you stick around, you’ll find that those statements from Ann Coulter and her ilk are psychotic bullshit.

[Gomez]

Diogenes

It sounds like you recognize that the impulse is irrational and tribalistic. So why not rise above it?

Well, rising above it should, IMO, be the goal. However, I think it’s definately not an easy thing to do. The tribalistic element makes it especially difficult since I think ethnocentric impulses (such as feeling more sympathy for your own) are instinctive, rooted in emotion and as such are reinforced by the majority of the other members of your tribe who would most likely be feeling ethnocentric too.

Having said that I certainly don’t think it’s impossible to rise above it. Just that it’s not necessarily a very negative reflection one someone if they are initially unwilling to.

[E72521]

@Aldebaran

I’m sorry, but what “respect” do they “deserve”?

That would be the respect of the administration that sent them to their premature deaths. We honor our war dead here, whether we agree with the war or not. Your culture doesn’t. Its an American thing, with the exception of a certain President.

Salaam. A

[AncientHumanoid]

@Aldebaran

blah, blah, blah…

Salaam. A

Gah!

I stab my eyes at thee!

[Mehitabel]

Gee, I guess I hallucinated the roll call of the dead I just saw on the nightly network news, the box with a black border in the New York Times that faithfully reports the names of all the dead, and the Friday report on the Lehrer Newshour.

How dare you, you cowardly bastard. Those men and women died in the belief that they were helping to liberate your fellow Arabs, people that your own country didn’t lift a finger to help as they suffered over the last thirty-five years. Get the hell out of here.

[CheekyMonkey613]

@Revtim

Congratulations, I think you the first person intelligent enough to find this board, yet so flaming ignorant to believe the “If you criticize Bush and/or the war you hate America” canard.

Make that the second person. May I remind you of a famous quote:

"If you are not with us, you’re against us." - George W. Bush

Then again, Revtim … To my knowledge, GWB hasn’t found this board. So I guess you’re right.

[Jaade]

@netscape 6

Speaking as person who has mixed feelings about the war. I think your statment means either your an asshole or your very ignorant. I’m going with asshole.

Is there a reason “ignorant asshole” isn’t applicable?
NCB ~grins~ Thanks!
Diogenes, do you think American lives are worth less than others? I have seen some posts of yours that weren’t bad, but please…stop reading things into people’s posts that aren’t there. People are allowed to be proud of their servicemen and women. People are allowed to be patriotic. People are allowed to have empathy for their fellow men.

~J

[fushj00mang]

My thanks to No Clue Boy, Jaade, Netscape, EddyTeddy, and all the others who have wellwishes for us over here. Now…

E72521. Your foot and my ass would make good buddies, you know that? Point one: Not a goddamned one of us over here would give a rats ass about our Commander-in-Chief being at our funerals if we were to die today, tomorrow, or next week in Iraq (or Turkey, Qutar, Korea, or anywhere within NATO or the USA.) The Honor in our passing will be in the fact that we laid down our lives for our Country, our God (in any and all of His names), and in seeking to bring Freedom to other human beings who have seen nothing but tyranny and bloodshead for over a quarter-century. Point two: Where are the flag draped coffins coming off of a Globemaster or Starlifter? Andrews AFB. When I shipped, we took a puddle-jumper to Andrews from Shaw, and then loaded up for Rammstein. We passed two caskets which were being carried by a joint Army/Air Force honor guard. We stood at attention as this solemn procession moved at sixty steps a minute to its transport and the final leg to some son, daughter, aunt, uncle, neice, nephew, father, or mother’s final resting space. No, the President wasn’t there. But in that procession, ALL of America was there. All of the fathers, mothers, sisters, and brothers who have served, do serve, and will serve were standing at attention, along with the forty of us awaiting our ride. Point Three: Where do you get off calling somebody spineless because he isn’t out there with us? I didn’t vote for our Commander-in-Chief. No, he’s not over here, in my unit. He’s not in the same country as I am. He’s not out here, facing the threat of death like the Coalition armed forces are, but then again, you’re not either. How fucking old are you? I ask because if you’re between 18 and 29, I’d invite you into my beloved Air Force so that you can prove just how much more sack you’re carrying compared to the President. Point Four: Finally, how the fuck do you know what our Commander-In-Chief is thinking? I’ve known soldiers, from Airmen Basic to full Generals who sweat every time they think about the folks under their command. The Dorm Chief, an Airman Basic watching over his fellow Airmen Basic to make sure they don’t catch hell from an Instructor. The lonely Staff Sergeant Training Instructor at Lackland, praying every night that his latest flight of trainees will all seperate from the service, whole and healthy. The Lieutenant-Colonel in command of a SP squadron, sending his boys out into the field, knowing that today may just be the day that he has to write a “Deeply Regret” letter to a mother, father, widow, or lover because a 20 year old Senior Airman died, doing his duty to the best of his ability. The General commanding a numbered Air Force, who makes waves and risks his next star to make sure his boys out there get all they need. The Senator or Congressman who fights for better pay and benifits, fights to spread the truth, and fights to honor us fighting men. And finally, The Commander-In-Chief who shares all these concerns because he is human, bleeds red like the rest of us, and while he may not know me nor any of my men, keeps his eye out on every one of us in the way he knows how. Just like on that tarmac, watching two flag draped caskets pass us on eight pairs of uniformed shoulders, ALL of these men and women are with us. And I don’t care who the fuck you are, because unless you’re a soulless, gutless, worthless piece of subhuman genetic shit, you’re with us too.

Its called human nature. Get used to it.

[jackelope]

fushj00mang, you’ve just put this entire conflict in a new light for me. Like many others I had strong doubts about the motives behind the war, and like many others I’ve wholeheartedly supported all of our servicemen and -women over there, but that post made me see all of you in a totally different light. That was fucking brilliant; thanks.

And get yourself home safe.

[Aldebaran]

@Lynn Bodoni

Aldebaran, don’t be a jerk.

Lynn
For the Straight Dope

Can you clarify this rude remark that sounds like an accusation? Thank you.

Salaam. A

[Aldebaran]

EddyTeddyFreddy
The Americans (and other Westerners) serving in Iraq didn’t make the policy decisions that sent them there. No doubt there are those in the invasion and occupation forces who voted against Bush and disagreed with the rush to war. Yet they have honored their oaths of service and obeyed their orders. This despite whatever doubts they may harbor about the wisdom of the decisions that have put them in harm’s way; despite the hardships and dangers they face; despite the damage and disruption to their lives back home.
And so we may condemn the policymakers, and despise the policies, yet honor those who have performed their duty honorably and bravely.

I could understand and fully agree with this if it would be handling about US soldiers defending the US against invading/attacking forces. It doesn’t answer my question on this topic though since such is not the case.

So why on earth does someone who has taken a job that is focussed on waging war/killing people “deserves respect” for doing the job he choosed to do and is payed for. Why on earth is such a person even declared a “hero” for invading a sovereign nation, occupying it and on the way having killed thousands of people who didn’t ask them to come there in the first place.

I consider for example the refusniks in the Israeli army who came to the conclusion that they don’t want to take part any more in the policy of the government, as people deserving the outmost respect. They make a very clear statement about their opinions and they want to go to prison for it.

If there are any US/UK/Other Nation’s soldiers who got the order to take part in the invasion/occupation of Iraq and did the same as those Israeli soldiers, then I salute them with the outmost respect.

Salaam. A

[Aldebaran]

@E72521

That would be the respect of the administration that sent them to their premature deaths.

With that I can fully agree.

We honor our war dead here, whether we agree with the war or not.

There is nothing wrong with honouring the death. But you once again make the distinction between those who die while at work at home and those who die while at work in a country they have nothing to do with in the first place.
Please explain why they are more worthy of being honoured then those who go at work inside their own country and die while doing their work.

Your culture doesn’t. Its an American thing, with the exception of a certain President.

Aha… I see you are one of those who claim to have the gift of being clear-voyant.
So sorry, but you need a new cristal ball because the one you seem to use fails completely to inform you about me or my culture.
In addition to that and probably even more embarassing for you: Your arrogant assumption that you do have any idea about me or my culture - and even extending that to all non-US nations, cultures and societies on this globe - makes you sound like an ignorant who likes it to live his life completely blindfolded.
Salaam. A

[Michael_Ellis]

@Aldebaran

So why on earth does someone who has taken a job that is focussed on waging war/killing people “deserves respect” for doing the job he choosed to do and is payed for. Why on earth is such a person even declared a “hero” for invading a sovereign nation, occupying it and on the way having killed thousands of people who didn’t ask them to come there in the first place.

Whoo boy. Say goodnight, Gracie.

[Aldebaran]

@Mehitabel

How dare you, you cowardly bastard.

Permit me to smile with this (clumsy) attempt to “insult” me. But would you be so kind to refrain from insulting my late mother? Thank you.

Those men and women died in the belief that they were helping to liberate your fellow Arabs, people that your own country didn’t lift a finger to help as they suffered over the last thirty-five years. Get the hell out of here.

Did the Iraqis asked them to come and murder thousands of them? I must have missed that.
Why don’t you adress your rants to the US president and his crew, who are the ones responsible for whatever lies those soldiers were told (and choosed to believe).
It may come as a shock to you, but the only reason the USA invaded that sovereign nation is the criminal arrogant attempt to secure its geopolitical and economical interests.
In my opinion it would be a good idea if you would do some research on how exactly the US policy works in that aspect of their “foreign policy”. You can be surprised when you start looking under “Saddam Hussein”. (Maybe it would be a good idea to take some valium on forehand.)

Salaam. A

[Michael_Ellis]

@Aldebaran

Permit me to smile with this (clumsy) attempt to “insult” me. But would you be so kind to refrain from insulting my late mother? Thank you.

As someone else said long ago:

Fuck you, fuck your mother, and fuck the camel your mother replaced.

[Aldebaran]

fushOOmang,

May I ask you something: Where you in some way forced or ordered to join the army?

Salaam. A