Free Iraqis.

Well, if they’re free, I’ll take a couple.

Oh… read the link.

you had to expect this to happen with that title

Okay, I read the link.

What point are you trying to debate?


  1. You can’t see a link where there is a link and have to write silly comments on that.

  2. You find all that is written in that articel absolutely normal?

Like for example:

First bombing people and killing hem, then letting the last child of a very badly wounded couple die in the cold because they must “make room” for US invaders, who killed their other chiildren while invading and occupying their country?

You find nothing “debatable” at all in that article?

Fine. Denying mass murder and inhumanity, even find it absolutely normal, must be convenient for you I suppose…

Nevertheless I think I’ll include you in my prayers because you seem to need someone compasionate in order to receive human feelings.

Because you know, this one article brings only a few of these stories. I can spam the boards of this website with them if I want.
But silly me… I thought people were able to inform themselves.


Lighten up.

You’ve mad quite a leap here Alde.
NCB didn’t say or iotherwise indicate any of this.
It’s quite possible and even probable that he found much debatable but was wondering if there was something in particular that you wanted to discuss. It is your OP afterall, and you didn’t provide much of an indicator as to what in particular about this article you wished to discuss. Your OP is pretty much just a link and nothing else.
Custom is that one should include at least a few words to provide direction for the conversation.

Spam is a nasty evil thing. Spammer is one of the worst things in all the world to be called.
You could spam the board for a bit if you wanted. Not much point in that though is there? Especially when you could engage in dialogue instead.

I’m sorry, but I can’t “lighten up” when people make “jokes” and act as if the talk about goods (“I’ll take a couple”???) instead of people, when it goes about people who were murdered and others who got mutilated and saw their children being murdered and then in addition were treated like garbage and had as result of that see their last surviving child die of the cold, while they were all killed and wounded by those who put them outside as if they were garbage.

And when there is an article posted, isn’t it obvious that the whole contenance is issue for debate?

And besides that: It is against the rulings of every message board I am familiar with to copy and paste the contenance of articles. So I guess if I start doing that, and thus “point out” issue by issue what everyone can read in the article, my posts will be deleted in no time.

And my remark about spamming mustn’t be read outside the context I wrote it. So if you quote this, please quote the whole remark. Thank you.


A common practice is to paraphrase the relevant points to be discussed.

Alde. You posted a link only, no commentary.

As that seems to be your wont, I took the opportunity to point out, in my own way, how silly it is to do that.

You need to figure what you want to say in a DEBATE.


You’re pretty new to this board. Look at a few OPs. No one gets respect for posting a link (esp from the Guardian) with absolutely no commentary. Try leaving emotions out of it and state your case, backed up with facts. Take a deep breath and start again.

And ask yourself if the Iraqi people would be better off if S.H. were still in power. Give an honest answer to that.

So you want an issue because you don’t see anything to start a conversation or discussion about…

Let’s think a bit in retrograde:


"We invade a sovereign nation to pre-emptive defend ourselves against the immediate threat to our national security and to find those chemical and biological weapens and other WMD and especially those ready to be launched at the USA in 45 minutes time. And of course there is the nuclear threat…

Twisted a few times until it was finally about…

“Iraqi freedom”
Question 1:

What “freedom” have those Iraqis in the article and the thousands of others?

Ah yes, forgot: They are dead. That is for a Muslim of course freedom since death is the last step to take to be able to meet the Creator. Yet I have some idea those people weren’t all that prepared to die already. Especially when it comes to the children.
They also weren’t and never will be prepared to be mutilated.

Question 2:

How nice those Americans are for those people…
Like the one I mentioned above… They mutilate and kill them and them put them with the garbage because they occupy a bed. Wow… Really the Good US Samaritans at work.
Must be inspired by God, like their president.
Voilà… already 2 things to debate on and I didn’t even mentioned more then one issue in that article. I’m sure when people actually read the whole, they are able to find much more in it.

Was THAT so hard?

I agree that the tragic loss of life and limb is a pretty high price to pay for the average person.

Because the average person is not really involved in the descision making that leads to these horrible things.

But, now that it’s been done, what can we do to fix it?

To be perfectly honest, I don’t know. And I have seroius doubts and questions about the real need for this war. Nothing to take a rabid stand pro or con, though. Just agonizing doubts and questions.

Is that what you were trying to get out of someone?

Next time, tell us in the OP.

Well, I’m no fan of The Guardian or any other newspaper or any other form of Media for that matter.

Yet reports on these issues drop on my desk regularly and since people here always yell for “proof” or whatever they call it, the only thing one can do about that is dig up some link to a related story in the English language.
I shall not post my own informations here because I can’t do that. And even if so, 99% is in non-English languages so what’s the use.

As for the question if the Iraqis wre bettter off with Saddam:
I think you should let them answer it themselves, don’t you think?

But if you are realistic, you must realize that even in a country ruled by a sadistic lunatic, not everyone suffers from this mistreatment and even those who do don’t like to be murdered by foreigners who are only out on invading, colonizing and grabbing the natural resources. And in addition treat those whose country they violate as dogs.
(My dogs don’t get thrown out in the cold, by the way, let be if they were dying)


I guess I will hazard a position in this debate:

Blowing up people is bad because being blown up sucks.

Ask them again in 1, 5, 10 years. That will determine if it was worth it.

Personally, I don’t think it was. We receive no benefit from this war. No one will thank us that Sadams gone, which he isn’t. Turns out Iraq PROBABLY didn’t have WMD. The Iraqi people get a chance at free country, but who really gives a fuck, right? Certainly not the families of any American servicemen killed over there.

There, it seems we have a debate:

Did the war, overall, do harm or good? Evil as Saddam undoubtedly was, one must examine the effects of the war on the population as a whole.

The sanctions caused by Saddam’s actions were killing many due to insufficient medical supplies, but at least each hospital’s basic infrastructure was intact. After they had been looted of their computers and important equipment, they were undeniably in worse shape than under Saddam, and there still aren’t enough supplies for basic operations. The same can be said for water supply, sewerage treatment, electricity and even the prized oil pipelines (which appear to have been sabotaged by Iraqis). It must surely be admitted that from a purely utilitarian point of view, Iraq is in worse shape than before the war and certainly in worse shape than before sanctions.

As for the outright executions and torture committed by the regime, of course the Iraqis are well rid of that. However, the almost total lawlessness witnessed in many towns and cities is arguably an even poorer substitute, as demonstrated by the pressing back into service of those policemen and officials who may well have tortured and executed, just to stop the population torturing and murdering each other.

As for those harrowing bomb stories, well, at least widespread corrupt thuggery under a totalitarian regime has some aspect of “normal life” which can be laboured under. An enormous bomb instantly taking your house and your children simply cannot be “dealt with” in the same manner. Of course, the thuggery and executions were indefinitely ongoing but even so would surely take several years to kill as many civilians as current estimates.

I would suggest the jury is still very much out on this debate. It all depends very much on the reconstruction efforts whether the entire affair really was good for the Iraqis overall.


This has nothing to do with the contention of the link I posted.

That was about the victims of this illegal invasion and occupation and the behaviour of the Americans overthere.

But to make the link to your remarks let’s look at this question:

Is it better to be murdered and tortured by your own lunatic leader, who doesn’t care about you and is only our on power and money, but who at least is one of your own country and people, and thus part of your culture and historical heritage…
Or is it preferable to be murdered and tortured by foreign invaders who don’t care a bit about you, your country, your cultural and religious heritage, have no respect at all for you as a person, a people, a nation,a culture and for your religion; have no clue about it at all and don’t wish to have a clue about it… But are only out on grabbing the natural resources of your country and install a permanent occupation in order to abuse your country as a foothold in the entire region in addition to the looting of its natural resources.

If I was Iraqy, I wouldn’t need to think about the answer at this moment.


Firstly, who, exactly is being ‘tortured’ by American troops, by which I mean imprisoned without due process and physically abused to extract information? See, that’s how most of us would define the term ‘torture’. A few names, locations, dates, if you please.

Secondly, are you seriously going to claim that that the American military deliberately targeted Iraqi children? Because that certainly seems to be the case.

Thirdly, what do you personally propose the US should do about all this? For example, do you advocate immediate, unconditional withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq? I mean, please state in clear language just what you think should be done to resolve the situation that you object to so much.

You know, Aldebaran, I sincerely think you should reconsider your approach. As others have patiently explained to you, merely posting links without comment is frowned upon here. Over-the-top hyperbole and withering hostility to every question posed to you is not likely to win anyone over to your viewpoint, either. Despite what you may think, this board is not some sort of official expression of the American viewpoint towards the Iraqi invasion, and even if it was, I think you would find, on balance, that posters tend to be more sympathetic to your viewpoint than you give them credit for.

Your posts get the treatment they get because of your unrelenting hostility, your carelessness with language, expecting everyone to guess what you mean when you use unconventional grammar, and your constant demands that we respond to your posts only in ways that you deem appropriate. You have made it clear that you have come in here with no interest in anything other than complaining about the US presence in Iraq, and have made it equally clear that you will accept no responses other than full agreement with your claims, no matter how overstated.

If you are wondering why most everyone here seems to view you as obnoxious and unworthy of being treated seriously, well, there’s your reason.

just read the link.

They killed his family, and then bargained morphine with what was left of them?

How low can you go?

[quote}Aldeberan wrote:
Is it better to be murdered and tortured by your own lunatic leader, who doesn’t care about you and is only our on power and money, but who at least is one of your own country and people, and thus part of your culture and historical heritage…
Or is it preferable to be murdered and tortured by foreign invaders who don’t care a bit about you, your country, your cultural and religious heritage, have no respect at all for you as a person, a people, a nation,a culture and for your religion; have no clue about it at all and don’t wish to have a clue about it… [/quote]

Yeah, I’d much rather be tortured by someone who is part of my cultural and historical heritage.:rolleyes:

But you set up an extreme false dichotomy. There is no evidence that Americans are deliberately torturing Iraqis.

Emphasis mine.

You don’t trust any media outlet at all? Then how do you know the information in the link you posted above is accurate?

from. -

A War in the Planning.

World events since the attacks of September 11, 2001 have not only been predicted, but also planned, orchestrated and - as their architects would like to believe - controlled. The current Central Asian war is not a response to terrorism, nor is it a reaction to Islamic fundamentalism. It is in fact, in the words of one of the most powerful men on the planet, the beginning of a final conflict before total world domination by the United States leads to the dissolution of all national governments. This, says Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member and former Carter National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, will lead to nation states being incorporated into a new world order, controlled solely by economic interests as dictated by banks, corporations and ruling elites concerned with the maintenance (by manipulation and war) of their power. As a means of intimidation for the unenlightened reader who happens upon this frightening plan - the plan of the CFR - Brzezinski offers the alternative of a world in chaos unless the U.S. controls the planet by whatever means are necessary and likely to succeed.

article continues.
anyways, message is,
take a big breath Alderbaren, let your rage ease for a minute, protect yourself. for whilst your sense of injustice is 100% justified, the matter of Irak is only small potatoes in the ‘great game’ the yankees have in progress.
our turn is not yet, but prob not too far aways.
wierdest thing is, even the mighty American ppl are minor 2 bit players in the main game overall objective, they too are subject to the whims, illusions of grandeur thier leaders have of controlling them, us, this planet and all that lives and breaths on it., thier ppl are exploited, thier lifes sacrificed and squandered by thier masters, in thier quest for glory and power. - just as those they slaughter are, they who die with a curse for the ‘life takers’ and thier decendents, with thier last breath, as they pass from this planets physical life, rest not easy quiet yet, but they will be,
be assured of that much at least.
plz just know, the slain Iraki ppl, whilst they live not, they are not dead, they still observe, witness all, miss nothing, there is an accounting for each and every one of them, and us, and those that killed them. nothing is forgotten, or missed.
but for right here, right now,
the name of the game is profit, domination, they just happen to be holding the reigns of thier runaway war cart, and for one, i am not sure they know well how to control it, seems to me, they will get thier butt kicked, sorley and severly, just like Vietnam, plz try to remember, some of them thought they meaned well, at the time… sad aint it?