If you read his post, he says he gets his information from numerous different sources, mostly non-english.
Um, ChaosGod? In what way is the link to which Aldebaran cites NOT a “form of media?” He didn’t say AMERICAN media, he said ANY media. Hell, he even undermines his own source. Here, I’ll quote it:
Something I’m missing?
I think the idea is that, although he doesn’t trust any ONE particular source, he considers that if the same news is reported by MULTIPLE sources this news becomes somewhat more credible.
I think I have to clarify one and an other about myself here, in order to avoid further misunderstandings.
I’m historian and although I don’t post here as such, but as a person who permits his own background and views to play a role in everything he writes here, my training as historian always and everywhere defines what I would dare to call a reliable historical source.
That excludes the media reporting on current events, because no research is done yet on what they report, on the person who brings the report, his/her mentality, political view, affiliation or involvement with what he/she reports about, on influences of background, education, people who order the report, edit it, the influence on them and their work and so on in the infinite.
That is why I find it always so difficult to come up with “proof” or whatever people on message board call it when they post a link to one or more " sources".
The internet is not a reliable source at all. It is even not a source, with exception for those websites set up by official organisations and even then you should look at the printed editions of what they report if you want to be sure you have indeed a source you can classify as such.
But as ChaosGod rightfully remarks, if one finds the same event repeated in different reports -media or other- written by different people or at least examined by those who copy them (and no media that respects itself will state something to be true just because they copy a report about it) the event itself becomes a form of credibility. Which always remains temporarely until serious research about it can be done.
As we talk here about multiple and uncontrolable events in a situation that changes by the hour, there is no other choice then to use such reports if you want to have a foundation for a debate.
Aldebaran.
Well, right off the bat in the article, we have error of fact:
An A-10 carrying a BLU-82?!? A 15,000 pound bounces?
I thought you were going to stay away from the SDMB, Aldebaran, based on how badly you got toasted the last time you showed up.
Are we headed for yet another meltdown? Or are you going to try to make sense this time.
Based on your OP, I am not hopeful, but I am willing to give you a chance. Please don’t make me sorry.
Regards,
Shodan
As for those members who ask if the US army has tortured Iraqis:
Read the link I gave to start with.
To give you one example out if it
Do you find throwing out in the cold a badly wounded couple who have lost their children, together with their only reaining but dying child that dies outthere under their helpless eyes, not torture?
I do.
I can give other examples, like “prisoners” being beaten up uintil they loose their teeth. (Leaving out of the debate that invaders have no right to call people of the country they invade and who defend their country and themselves prisoners)
And like prisoners being forced to undergo -or at least take part in faked - sexual abuse, while an other one was driven around hanging in front of a forklift…
I call that torture. (This was comitted by UK soldiers and discovered by a person working in the photoshop where a soldier who was involved brought his pictures to be developed)
And like prisoners who are deprived from rest and sleep and forced to listen for days and nights to extremely loud and extremely enervating Western music they have never heard before in their lives in order to make them “confess” …
I call that torture.
(If I had to listen to that kind of horrible “music” for a few hours I think I would be that nervous that I would be ready to knock the person responsible into hospital.)
I think you can find reports about these things if you look on Humans Rights websites.
Further it is torture to spread cluster bombs who tear playing children apart.
It is torture to refuse burned children medical treatment. It is torture to permit looting of hospitals.
It is torture to hurt people, tout court.
The invaders torture people daily and if that is “deliberately” is no question because it is. They have no business there, they have no right to be there, they have no right to cause death and destruction there.
Thus every pain they cause is deliberately because of the fact that they are there and do it.
And don’t come up with the excuse that “they follow orders”.
Soldiers are trained to kill and wound and destroy. They know it and they do it. Sometimes it is inevitable to fight in a war and thus do what soldiers are trained for.
But this “war” was not inevitable and everyone who takes part in it is in violation with the international law and the Geneva Conventions and can be accused of crimes against humanity.
If I was a US soldier an got order to go overthere, I would refuse to go and murder people for no “reason” but the greed of my government and prefer all the consequences of that decision.
Aldebaran.
I was going to comment about the exact same thing (had the same phrase quoted and everything).
Such an error, while seemingly trivial, brings into question the integrety of the author and his story. Is he just being sloppy? Is he intentionally taking poetic license since ‘daisy cutter’ sounds more ominous than ‘Mk-82’ (or whatever it’s called)? What other dramatic licenses has he taken woth the story? It’s the same kind of bullshit reporting that attempts to turn every tragedy or triumph into ‘A Jerry Bruckheimer Production’ (cue the lightning bolt logo).
You know what’s sad Zanthor? That the only ones who can possibly lose the war in Iraq are the Iraqi people. We have little to gain in Iraq but the Iraqis have much to lose. What do you think the worst that will happen to America? Maybe a couple hundred casualties over several years. Or maybe one big botched Black Hawk Down style fiasco and we decide “screw this…aint worth it”. So the Iraqis maybe get to pat themselves on the back how they vanquished the big bad Yankee imperialists as their nation decends into anarchy. We go back to our SUVs and DVD players and the Iraqis go back to farming dirt and being ruled by one warlord after the other. What did the Vietnamese really win from the Vietnam War?
:eek: Spooky stuff.
Shodan,
I don’t like toast and thus it isn’t around in places where I come.
And if some people around here think they can “toast” me, then I kindly suggest them, for their own good and fun, to search for an other type of “victim” to play their childish games.
Because this one isn’t “toastable” and isn’t the type such people could “scare away”.
I’m used to interact with adults.
And as I said the first days I posted here: everyone has his/her own style and everyone needs to get used to everyone.
I’m sorry, but I have no idea why people can think that other people should change themselves because some posters on some message board would like to see that they become like they are.
The members who don’t like my style or my postings are entitled to their choice. Nobody asks them to read my posts or to answer them, no?
As for being taken “serious”.
I’m sorry, but people who aren’t able to take serious what I write because my style doesn’t appeal to them, have in my opinion a worrying limited worldview. If I would have read only that what was written in a style I could recognize myself in, I wouldn’t have read much in my life.
You can’t seriously defend the position that every member posting on this website needs to “fit in” with “the group”, formed by some members who claim they are “the rulers”, no?
Sorry, I don’t have that urge to submit myself to a group mentality, let be I would feel such need when interacting with anonimous people in cyberspace.
Aldebaran.
Upon reading the article further, I am happy to see that former New York Times reporter Jayson Blair has landed a new job.
How nice, tanks with windows. Are they making submarines with screen doors now?
Chris and Joe? Did he read the name off the uniforms? Ooops, that would have their last name. The whole story rings false.
I just have a hard time with the whole article once the author shows he’s willing to embellish and play fast and loose with the facts.
This is a perfect example of the blind hatred and bigotry towards all Americans, and the complete ignorance of your audience, that you bring to every one of your posts in this forum. Aldebaran, if you know how, do a search under my username in this forum, up to, say, two months’ back. Read some of my posts concerning the war in Iraq, then come back here and tell me I was in favor of it, or of the current occupation, in any way shape, or form.
And I’ll accept your apology, if you are man enough to admit when you’ve been wrong.
But of course you won’t do any of those things, because all you are really interested in is pushing your particular brand of hatred, which should be in the Pit, if anywhere.
Oh, yeah, and I’m still waiting to hear your no doubt well-reasoned and practical proposals to resolve the current situation.
It is simply a flat out lie to assert that our soldiers–merely by taking part in the war–are therefore guilty of crimes against humanity, or violations of the Geneva conventions. It is not a violation of the Geneva convention for a soldier to follow legal orders in a war, regardless of whether the war was moral, legal, or wise.
If you stuck with asserting that George Bush was a war criminal for engaging in aggressive war, you might be taken for something other than a loon in some circles. But please cite from the Geneva Conventions where common soldiers are war criminals if they engage in an unauthorizied/immoral/illegal war.
Yes, “Just Following Orders” is not a valid defense against war crimes. So if your commanding officer orders you to rape women or massacre civilians you have no defense if you obey. But if he orders you to attack enemy soldiers and you obey, you haven’t commited a war crime, no matter how wrong the war was. If you think I’m wrong, please provide evidence. Like, a quote from the Geneva Convention. If you can’t provide evidence from the Geneva Conventions, please retract your statement and apologize to us on the SDMB and US and British Soldiers in Iraq.
Damn boards, apologies if this is posted twice.
In the author’s defence, I should point out that the Marines use wheeled APCs that have cab windows of armored glass. Most civilians tend to consider all armored vehicles, wheeled or tracked, as ‘tanks’, and since the author is quoting a civilian witness, I’m inclined to cut him some slack on that one.
Nevertheless, there are several technical errors of this nature, which, since they are reported without correction, tend to raise questions about the accuracy of the reporting.
Bottom line is, horrific events, probably resulting from mistakes of judgement by US troops, are described in the article. These events are of the sort which have happened in all modern conflicts. Apparently Aldebaran’s ranting is centered around the idea that these should be prosecuted as war crimes. According to my (admittedly limited) knowledge of international conventions, these cannot be prosecuted as such, at least not at the line level. Sorry if this opinion is unsatisfactory to the OP.
NurseCarmen: The story could have been fabricated. Nobody can deny that. But, what part do you find unbelievable? The gunning down of civilian vehicles that don’t slow down at checkpoints is still happening right NOW. And a few days ago, they discovered a soldier who stole 600 dollars from an Iraqis’ car.
I think the bottom line is this. War is hell. When you go to war, these things are going to happen. So, if you’re going to wage war, you’d better do it for a very, very, very good reason. This doesn’t seem to have been the case here.
Lemur,
The invasion of that sovereign nation is a crime against humanity itself.
Even before this started there was worldwide discussion among speicalitst in international laws about the possibility that even common soldiers could be held responsible for taking part in this.
And if you want to see me for a lunatic because I say that Bush and his crew are criminals, feel free to do so.
I find it extremely arrogant of you to claim that I should “apologize” towards people who take part in the mass murdering of the Iraqy population while invading their country and keeping it under occupation.
They are there because they want to be there because they became soldiers because they wanted to be soldiers.
Soldiers are trained to kill.
If you don’t want to kill, you don’t become a soldier.
So sorry, but you can’t sell the “hero” rethoric to me.
A killer entering a sovereign nation to kill is no hero but merely a killer trained to kill because he wanted to be a trained killer.
Like one of those soldiers said when asked why he shot a women dead: “I don’t know… The chick got in my way…”.
Probably that is for you a hero. But to me it is a murderer.
And if you want more quotes like that (with name and rank of those involved) I can give you a whole website where you can admire the heroic work of those heroes in colourful pictures.
You people are so keen on getting “proof”… Yet when pictures are shown on websites like this they are very quickly deleted because “too graphic”.
Aldebaran.
So you CAN’T provide evidence quoting from the Geneva Conventions that soldiers who engage in wars are guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity if the war itself is an unjust war?
I didn’t challenge you on whether BUSH was a war criminal. I challenged you on whether US and British soldiers were war criminals merely for being in Iraq. Sure, any soldiers who rape, murder, torture, etc etc etc are war criminals, regarless of whether they were ordered to do so or not. We’re not talking about that.
You claim and US and British soldiers are war criminals merely for being in Iraq. Please support your claim, or retract it and apologize. I’m not demanding you apologize that you said our soldiers are killers. I’m demanding you apologize for calling them war criminals, a completely different thing. Put up or shut up.
And “people were saying it before the war” is not exactly proof. What expert in international law said it? What did they base their decision on? Can we read what this expert said?
Oh, and also please provide evidence that a US or British soldier responded “I don’t know… The chick got in my way…” when asked why he killed a woman. A soldier who killed a civilian just because he felt like it is definately a war criminal and a murderer and can and should be prosecuted under US or British law. But which soldier said this? Who reported him saying this? Who did he kill? What unit was he in? Where and when did he kill this woman? Where and when did he give the interview where he said this? You understand, I’m only asking in the interest of justice, since I don’t want any war criminals or murderers in our armed forces. So we NEED that evidence. If you have the evidence but refuse to provide it, then you are just allowing murderers to walk free. If you DON’T have the evidence, then please stop slandering US soldiers, and apologize for the slander.
By the way, you can’t post pictures on this website, because the admins have decided not to allow ANY pictures. Graphic, political, cute, silly, it doesn’t matter, you can’t post any pictures because it would eat up too much server resources. But you can certainly post links to websites that contain pictures, as long as you don’t directly link to pornography, illegal websites, your own commercial site, etc. But even then you could simply say “do a google search with such and such terms and the site I’m thinking of is the first one on the list”. If you are in doubt about whether a link would violate message board rules, email a moderator and ask them first…they will be happy to advise you.
Yes please…because everything found on the web is true.
I said experts in several countries discussed that and came to the conclusion that it could be possible because of the nature of the situation, yes. Among them the professor who teached me when I was at the univ.
There must be interviews published about this with some of these people, probably even in English. You are the expert on Google, so it mustn’t take you long to find them on your beloved internet.
You’ll probably find the quote of that soldier on the website I posted. They use such quotes to make the impact of their horrible pictureS even greater.
Rethoric and copy and paste work is something that is done from top to bottom before and during this whole situation, no? So you can’t blame those who are against it to adopt the tactics of the murderers in order to sell the message.
Yet, those pictures are real and not faked like the “evidence” of the murderers for selling their crimes to the public.
I think those quotes are also real, since name and rank of the person in question is mentioned. Besides that: quotes like that of soldiers appeared in several media worldwide. Even in English languaged media. So since you are an expert with Google, it won’t take you long to find some, no?
And since you are an expert about the USA army, claiming that you personally want to bring those people to justice and thus NEED the “evidence”, you can easily trace down if those persons exist.
(Your next sentence is even more childish and laughable).
And be so kind to take in mind that I’m not citizen of a nation where the leaders just came to murder thousands of people in an other sovereign nation. Supported and applauded by a majority of the population. They are the one who not only let murderers walk free, but even admire and applaud them.
I think you should see things the way they are, and stop claiming that I should apologize because I call murderers murderers and criminals criminals.
Aldebaran.
from http://www.marchforjustice.com/3.30.php
Huh?