Fed up with Teacher Hate and Disrespect in this Country

You seem to believe that getting shit from all directions is unique to teachers–that teachers are singled out for the treatment you describe while people who do other jobs are living the good life. Well, that’s simply not the case.

I’m a lawyer (a partner in a large law firm). If I come up with a brilliant idea or work my ass off to get something done on time, it will often either not be noticed at all or met with a quck thanks while life moves on. If I don’t meet certain people’s expectations (however unreasonable they may be IMHO), I get lots of uncomfortableness and potential for longer-term ramifications. And, in addition to demands from clients, of course there’s always different kinds of shit to deal with from people above me and below me, in my group and out of it. Sometimes those people have different goals–sometimes they are directly opposite–and I have to work within that framework and balance the interests as best I can.

So, the problems you are complaining about are really just features of working with other humans, not features of being a teacher.

How do you expect to get good teachers if you’re unwilling to pay for them? Should they just do it for the love of it? 'Cause if so, why is teaching so different from other professions?

I had perhaps four bad teachers in my life. Most were adequate, and six were far better than I deserved. Two, at least, fundamentally shaped my life- I wouldn’t be where I am now if they hadn’t taught.

I smell straw. Nobody is saying that teachers shouldn’t be paid.

Perception =/= reality. There is a perception that tenure means bad teachers can’t get fired. There is a perception that teachers, and their unions, are against having any of their pay being based on their personal performance. It’s a perception that works against teachers getting respect from many people.

How about this, you have a department head regularly review your lesson plans and tests, and provide (with administrative approval) a performance review and performance based bonus at the end of the school year.

Perception perception perception, perception.

@Rand Rover

I’m not trying to imply that teachers are the ONLY profession that have to deal with crap from other people. All I’m saying is that the nature of the crap they have to put up with is inherently going to drive good teachers out of the profession. I don’t expect teachers to ever have an easy job; by definition, teaching is very difficult. But by simply criticizing me for posting my concerns with how to improve education, you aren’t really helping the issue. Besides, I’m not a teacher anymore, for the precise reason that it was too much bullshit to deal with, and now I have a much less stressful career with much more support from my superiors. Not ALL careers are as bad as others; I’m sure being a lawyer comes with a lot of stress too. I think teachers should have more support, that’s all, not that they shouldn’t have to field legitimate concerns or criticisms.

@Cheesesteak

Having your department chair review your work and measure your success against well defined criteria would be a great way to do it. I feel in practice it should also involve an independent review board set up by either the district or the state. It may also be appropriate to allow some level of student achievement to be part of the composite score, as long as the standardized test questions were well defined ahead of time.

I agree that managers are at least partially responsible for their employees, but it’s not as clear as you say. If an employee royally fucks up, the manager is not going to get pressure from upper management to keep that employee on and improve them. No, they are going to let them go. Furthermore, though I’ve never worked in management, my sister and others I have known were managers, and while there lives are VERY stressful, the metric which they are held to is usually overall department or store success, not the success of EACH INDIVIDUAL EMPLOYEE, as is the case with a teacher. Imagine if you were a manager of good size grocery store, you have 30 employees, who work under you every single day, and unless every single one of them us successful in their job, you get pressure from upper management to spend time outside your day working with them, helping them get better, etc. Now imagine about 3 of those employees NEVER do any work, no matter how much you try to get them to, and upper management tells you to call their parents and schedule a meeting to get them to succeed in their job. It goes on and on. The relationship between a manager and employee is not even remotely the same as between a teacher and student. As long as a manager’s store or department is successful, their job is safe, and they aren’t going to get hell from upper management. Maybe I was stretching a little to say that NO other profession holds you accountable for others, but I don’t think there are many that are anywhere near the level teachers are for their students.

What about Inception?

Well culturally and demographically we’re much more similar to you than you are to Singapore or Japan. So there is that as well as the commonality of our public school system. Besides given the rankings from Programme for International Student Assessment (2009) you might as well shoot to be as good as we seem to be.

Japanese ranks in Math/Science/Reading - 9/5/8
Canadian ranks in Math/Science/Reading - 10/8/6
USA ranks in Math/Science/Reading - 30/23/17

40k minimum, not average, in most provinces, with 6 years education. Around 35k with 4 years. That’s based on your link. I have no idea where you got average from. Plus some really good benefits: very good pension, various types of insurance, and the possibility for differed leave (take a 15-20% pay cut for 3 years, get a semester off).

I suddenly feel a strong urge to move to Canada and teach physics. Are there many American teachers who do that because the situation is so much better up there?

Must have been from the table’s title - “Average Teacher Salaries by Province”

I know two Americans who teach here, but I don’t know why they moved. Depending on the place there can be a huge glut of teachers for a certain subject though, so do some research if you’re serious about it. On the other hand, there’s sometimes a shortage to: we’re missing french teachers at the moment, but overrun with English teachers.

Edit: Guess I missed that Grey. Sorry for the snark. But is it just me, or does the chart not at all match the title? I mean it says average salary in the title, then it shows the minimum and maximum salary…average? The average minimum salary? That doesn’t even make sense.

Why would you think it’s much better? Better test scores don’t necessarily imply better teaching environments. There are lots of excellent teachers that don’t get hired, or they are hired part time and have to act as substitutes until a spot opens up. You’d need to ask someone better positioned to answer that, I’m not associated with teaching in any capacity. Aside from my kids that is.

How the fuck to you follow up this:

with this:

Yeah, I tried to figure that out but opted to assume the table was correct. The numbers certainly fall in the range that I would expect.

My best guess? I’d assume that Minimum should really be labeled Entry Salary while Maximum would be the average of the top earning teachers across the province. The StatsCan link at the bottom likely was the original source data.

How much does a professional make?

Maybe it’s your own strawman? I didn’t say that anyone is claiming that teachers shouldn’t be paid- but there are plenty of people who think that teachers are overpaid, with the obvious conclusion that they should be paid less. How do you expect to attract good teachers if they can make more money elsewhere?

  1. Who was the person who said that the problem with education wasn’t caused exacerbated by right-wing mewling? I wonder if they noticed that the majority of teacher-piling on in this thread is caused by known right-wingers. So much for the ‘they do it equally’ bullshit.

  2. What the hell does ‘overpaid’ mean? Do you mean that they’re getting paid more than they deserve/need or more than what’s needed to attract them to the job? If it’s the former, who the fuck cares? I don’t give a flying fuck about fairness or need or any of that crap, what I do care about is producing the best damn educational system possible.

Look, you don’t need to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to professional athletes in order to have a sports league or even to fill up a team for each state. You could probably fill up an entire roster just by offering ‘reasonable’ (to accommodate for injuries and training and crap) salaries in the high five-figures and most of the people on the field would be, if not exceptional, at least competent. However people do it anyway because doing it this way attracts the best and brightest. Now professional sports is a thing where people will pay millions more for a marginal improvement–and while I don’t think that teaching should go THAT far I think it’s pretty clear that the teaching profession is not even close to the point of diminishing returns.

So that said, if you want a first-class educational system where Americans can wave their dicks at everyone and brag how much smarter their kids are (which I fully support) you’re going to need to pay for it. And I really don’t care if in order to pull Dr. Thompkins (Professor of the Year for the Computer Science Department at Georgia Tech) away from his job to teach at some nameless rural school you need to offer him 300,000 dollars and give him 4 months paid vacation a year and a blowjob from his favorite celebrity. I don’t care how much the doctors, lawyers, generals, whoever whine about how they’re getting paid out of proportion to the effort, what I care is whether they’re making the educational system the best it can be.

Secondly, paying teachers a reasonable salary after determining that they’re good or not is a folly. While you can spot certain kinds of bad ones pretty quickly if you care, good ones take several years to ferret out.

So while they’re hovering in good teacher/bad teacher limbo, what the hell is their incentive to sign up for the job in the first place? If I had some sort of advanced qualification I’d rather get paid the money now rather than take a risk on something that might not pan out. I agree that more people will sign up for a chance at future rewards than if you didn’t provide those incentives at all, but not as much as if after determining that they met the minimum requirements you gave them the money first. THEN after that you can wash them out if they don’t meet the standards. You know, like they do for most other high-paying professional jobs.

@Lago

Great points, but I’m not sure that we actually face a “bad teacher” epidemic in this country. Paying teachers more to get more talented people into the schools certainly wouldn’t be a bad thing… but even the most stellar teachers are only as successful as their administration, students, and parents allow them to be. I think if we can change the attitudes of parents, children and district admins to start putting more responsibility on the students, stress the importance of hard work, and making sure passing grades actually meant something and weren’t just handed out, it would go a lot further than pay increases.

Also, in regards to over/underpaid discussion, just to put in my perspective, I was certainly not overpaid as a teacher, even though I was making 46k in my 2nd year. In my opinion, for a person to be “overpaid”, you are making the claim that you could find many equally qualified individuals who would work for less money and perform at similar levels as the original employee.

Another component is that an overpaid employee would not be able to easily find another job of equal pay, since they are obviously making more than they should be considering their skills, qualifications, etc. As evidenced by the fact that within a few weeks of deciding to quit teaching I was able to find a job that paid 12k MORE per year, I don’t think I was being overpaid. I think that most teachers (especially math and physical science teachers), could fairly easily find private sector jobs that pay more than what they make as a teacher. If I wouldn’t have been able to find a better or equal paying job, I wouldn’t have quit teaching this year, but fortunately that wasn’t the case.