Fed up with Teacher Hate and Disrespect in this Country

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Ruken

I need to see if I can find the numbers that show the increases in students, teachers, and “other” (which I presume is admin and support staff) over the years. IIRC, teacher numbers have gone up more than students (maybe not so much in the past two years, but I think this was over 10 or 20), so classrooms have shrunk, but admin/staff levels outpaced them both. I have to wonder how much this (admin) costs and if it’s necessary.

I will say I have a beautifully small class; it’s something I’m grateful for, because it means more time with individual students (and before you ask, my class size is actually small enough that all studies on class sizes agree it makes a difference).

Regarding the current conversation, while I’m all for making it easier to fire lackluster teachers, I fully recognize that school administrators are often fuckwits. While I’m sure they’re out there, I have yet to meet one who strikes me as particularly competent. Normally a business that hires incompetent managers fails to one that avoids them, but schools aren’t like normal businesses. Competition is minimal, and as I wrote much earlier, I often wonder how much the “customers” actually want good teachers, as opposed to ones who won’t complain about Johny’s behavioral problems or fail the star tennis player off the team.*

Two things:

1. My current administration is wonderful, and I feel very lucky to have them. That’s all I’ll say on that topic, because I have a policy of not saying things online that could possibly get me in trouble.
2. The customers aren’t the parents, dammit! At a private school the customers are the parents, since they’re paying for the service; but at public schools the customer is society. Parents may want easy-A teachers, but I’m pretty convinced society wants good teachers. (Society may not be willing to do what it takes to get good teachers, but that’s another question).

[Zeriel]

@Rand_Rover

LHOD, if you want to make more money, why don’t you go into a field that pays better?

Imagine saying this like 500,000 more times. Now imagine that the job fairy waves her magic wand (because god knows businesses aren’t doing it) and creates jobs for those teachers to go to. Every teacher in the country.

Now the fuck what?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Rand_Rover

LHOD, if you want to make more money, why don’t you go into a field that pays better?

Have you ever asked for a raise? If so, don’t you go to your employer and explain why you think you deserve one? Who do you think my employer is? Hint: think big.

Edit: also realize that I don’t limit the arguments I’m making to this forum.

[Rand_Rover]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Have you ever asked for a raise? If so, don’t you go to your employer and explain why you think you deserve one? Who do you think my employer is? Hint: think big.

Edit: also realize that I don’t limit the arguments I’m making to this forum.

Actually, I never have asked for a raise, but that’s beside the point. And I guess in some sense the citizens of your state are your employers, but that’s beside the point as well. The point is that you aren’t asking for a raise. Asking for a raise is where an employee asks an employer for an increase in that employee’s salary. You are asking for an increase in your own salary and the salary of every single person in your industry.

It’s very simple: If you want to make more money, then do something that pays more money.

[Ruken]

@CitizenPained

Classes didn’t shrink. Classes are bigger for basic ed. Maybe the art teacher, music teacher or the reading resource room teacher has a smaller class, but no, my Geography class had 43 kids and 39 desks a few years ago.

The addition of more special ed teachers may be what you’re speaking of…here, we’re all about saving some cash with larger classes.

It really does make for some ineffective teaching. You (read: anyone) try to manage 150 kids (40 at once) and tell me how well it works. Too much admin - grading effectively, requiring re-writes, contact with parents, managing assessments - everything that ‘good teachers’ are supposed to do.

I’m more interested in these numbers as they pertain to reducing or redirecting costs arising from bloated administrations.

However, if you want to discuss class size (readers at home should note that this is different from student/teacher ratio, which is sensitive to ancillary teachers), we can start with some real data. Your personal experience is irrelevant. We can start here (table 71) and work our way back and see what we find.

Whether “*t really does make for some ineffective teaching” is a matter of much debate, and we can find plenty of cites arguing for or against this. Obviously as CRS(classroom size) –> ∞, teaching become increasingly difficult, especially for bad teachers. As CRS –> 0, teaching becomes prohibitively expensive. The middle ground will be argued about for some time.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

2. The customers aren’t the parents, dammit! At a private school the customers are the parents, since they’re paying for the service; but at public schools the customer is society. Parents may want easy-A teachers, but I’m pretty convinced society wants good teachers. (Society may not be willing to do what it takes to get good teachers, but that’s another question).

I know that. You know that. Society may know that if they bother to stop a moment to rub a couple brain cells together, but do they go to school board meetings? Even bother to vote in school board elections? Do they care about much more than their property tax bill or (in certain sad parts of this country) how well the football team is doing? Probably not, unless they have kids in school. Only a percentage of the customers care and wield their vote, and thus effectively become the only customers.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Rand_Rover

Actually, I never have asked for a raise, but that’s beside the point. And I guess in some sense the citizens of your state are your employers, but that’s beside the point as well. The point is that you aren’t asking for a raise. Asking for a raise is where an employee asks an employer for an increase in that employee’s salary. You are asking for an increase in your own salary and the salary of every single person in your industry.

It’s very simple: If you want to make more money, then do something that pays more money.

Except, of course, it’s not that simple, because if you want to make more money, you can also make the case to get paid more money at your current job. And no, technically I’m not asking for a raise, since I’m asking for it for everyone in my group–that’s completely irrelevant, since I was talking about the dynamics of asking for a raise, dynamics which apply here. When you ask for a raise, you make the case that you’re worth the additional money. I’m trying to make the case here that teachers are worth the additional money, especially in North Carolina.

[Rand_Rover]

Typically when someone asks for a raise, they want a little bump–like 10% of their current salary. That’s not what you want. You want to be paid “like a professional” and “on par with teachers in countries with effective education systems.” That’s not a raise, that’s a change in the basis for compensating an entire industry. And you’ve been as vague as possible about how much you want.

Just go to law school already.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Rand_Rover

Typically when someone asks for a raise, they want a little bump–like 10% of their current salary. That’s not what you want. You want to be paid “like a professional” and “on par with teachers in countries with effective education systems.” That’s not a raise, that’s a change in the basis for compensating an entire industry. And you’ve been as vague as possible about how much you want.

Just go to law school already.

Thanks for the advice!

[elninost0rm]

@Rand_Rover

Typically when someone asks for a raise, they want a little bump–like 10% of their current salary. That’s not what you want. You want to be paid “like a professional” and “on par with teachers in countries with effective education systems.” That’s not a raise, that’s a change in the basis for compensating an entire industry. And you’ve been as vague as possible about how much you want.

Just go to law school already.

Wow.

[BlinkingDuck]

@elninost0rm

Wow.

Oh, not wow. His attitude is actually normal.

I remember my first teacher orientation. The guest speakers message boiled down to…don’t bitch…do your job…if you think you are under paid/valued then leave the field. I shit you not…that was pretty much it.

The other thing is that everyone…and I do mean EVERYONE… believes that they should be paid more than a teacher. This even hit close to home for me when I mentioned that the 3 highest paid people in the school was the Superintendent, the Principal and the head janitor. I received no sympathy from even my mom who blurted out “well that makes sense - he works”. I got to see into what my family really thought of my ‘profession’.

Another example was my sister-in-law who worked as a bank teller. She was about 30, didn’t have a college education. She complained that she saw teachers paychecks and specifically mentioned a teacher* who came in to cash her checks and she EXCLAIMED in OUTRAGE “DID YOU KNOW SHE MAKES ALMOST AS MUCH AS I DO!?!”

My sister even complained that a sport (volleyball) was cut that my nieces participated in. She was angry because the teachers received a 1.5% raise** that year and that money could have been used to fund Volleyball.

What is fun about the above stories is that when I tell them today I still get the same puzzled reaction from many…what is wrong…why is this story outrageous? THAT essentially boils down what is wrong with teaching as a ‘profession’…that many people do not understand just how absolutely insane the above 3 anecdotes are.
*who was about 40 and been teaching for over 15 years.

** Really a paycut since inflation was much higher than 1.5% back then.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@BlinkingDuck

I remember my first teacher orientation. The guest speakers message boiled down to…don’t bitch…do your job…if you think you are under paid/valued then leave the field. I shit you not…that was pretty much it.

The thing that’s so silly about this is that it ignores the last century of labor history, in which people who think they’re underpaid, instead of leaving the field, work to increase pay for the field. A lot of people think that there are only two choices for an employee who feels underpaid:

1. Suck it up.
2. Leave the field.

Choice number three, of course, is
3) Try to get pay for the field increased.

And there’s nothing wrong whatsoever with taking the third choice. I may be unsuccessful, of course (scratch that–may CONTINUE TO be unsuccessful), and people can reasonably disagree with my reasoning for increasing teacher pay, but objecting to the very attempt? It’s just weird.

[BlinkingDuck]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

The thing that’s so silly about this is that it ignores the last century of labor history, in which people who think they’re underpaid, instead of leaving the field, work to increase pay for the field. A lot of people think that there are only two choices for an employee who feels underpaid:

1. Suck it up.
2. Leave the field.

Choice number three, of course, is
3) Try to get pay for the field increased.

And there’s nothing wrong whatsoever with taking the third choice. I may be unsuccessful, of course (scratch that–may CONTINUE TO be unsuccessful), and people can reasonably disagree with my reasoning for increasing teacher pay, but objecting to the very attempt? It’s just weird.

That’s a completely different thing unrelated to teaching. It is one of the results of the massive class warfare that has been ongoing for 30+ years.

[drewtwo99]

@Blinking Duck

I 100% agree with your advice to anyone thinking about teaching to NOT do it. No matter how much you love it, love the kids, love the material, or whatever. No one loved teaching more than I did, and I got out after just 2 years. Teaching is a fucking joke, and if you actually have the talents required to be a good teacher, then you have the talents to make a lot more money somewhere else, where you will be appreciated and supported a LOT more, and work far fewer hours overall. And your stories are so sad and so depressing, it makes me so glad I’m not a teacher anymore. It sucks walking around with everyone thinking that you are overpaid and underworked. Makes you feel pretty worthless. I feel really bad for teachers.

@LHOD

I agree that it’s not inherently wrong to try to fight for teachers to get better pay. However, the way I tend to look at it is that in the private world, wages are competetive. Meaning that you have to pay someone a certain amount of money to prevent them from working for a competetor or other industry all together. If a company is habitually underpaying its employees, then those employees will (theoretically) be able to find work elsewhere, and the company will always be understaffed. That sort of a business is not going to last very long, which is why companies are forced by the market to offer competetive wages to their professionals. (Please note I’m talking about career professions that require at least a bachelor’s degree, most of the stuff I’m saying doesn’t particularly apply to minimum wage style jobs). Unfortunately for teachers, there seem to be enough of you all to fill the ranks (even if some long term subs have to be hired, etc) that school districts are never going to be forced by a lack of staff to pay better wages. It looks like there are always going to be enough eager-eyed, optimistic people looking to teach to take the positions for what little money they are given. If this were not the case, if more teachers would quit and get out entirely, en masse, then districts would have no choice but to increase teacher pay in order to entice more talent to fill the ranks. So I did my part and got out of teaching, and if everyone did the same, maybe in a decade or two, teacher pay would actually improve. But I do commend you to try to fight for it from within the profession

[BlinkingDuck]

I’ve posted this before (and probably better) but will attempt it again:

Why are some jobs paid more than others?

• Does your job require extensive education? The more it does, the less supply their will be and wages will tend higher. In addition, people with education in fields people tend to find hard or uninteresting means supply will be lower and so wages tend to be higher.

• Does your job have a professional board or something that limits supply? This means that people have to jump through extra hoops and cannot just ‘hang out a shingle’ after they graduate. This limits supply and so ups pay

• Does your job benefit the many or the few (or one). The more people your job benefits the lower your pay will tend to be. Journalists benefit is to society and so is difuse - therefore people are unlikely to pay much for it. If you are up on a murder rap though…and you will pay for the best lawyer you can…that lawyer is benefiting one person - you…and so you are willing to pay.

• What is the immediate price for your employer if you fail?

• What is the price to your employer of being good at your job but not DAMNED GOOD. IF there isn’t a large difference between good and damned good…your pay will tend lower.

• How quickly can you be replaced if you just walked out this minute from your job? The more quickly you can be replaced, the lower your wages can be.

• What is the difference between a ‘journeyman’ in your career versus a seasoned expert? Little difference means lower pay.

So, how does teaching stack up?

Well, teaching requires a college degree which is something. However, society does not seem picky about this. The Education Colleges have their own degrees but they are (at least for math) extremely watered down. A typical Math education degree is roughly equivalent to a Math minor. In addition, States can offer ‘3 week programs of Calculus’ where teachers can go and getcredit for Calculus and are then ok to teach math (true story). Therefore, while the college degree requirement is something, it has been watered down as much as it can to limit this bottleneck.

Teaching really does not have a professional board. Teachers cannot limit their own supply to make themselves more valuable as, say, Medicine does.

Teaching benefits the many. To make this worse, many people paying for the service do not partake of it at this time (no school age children) and so really do not care. So, not only benefit the many but the ones that they do benefit do not pay most of the bills.

If you fail, your students suffer. There is no immediate consequences that anyone can see. Maybe Johnny didn’t become a doctor which he would have if I had taught him instead of you…but who would ever know?

Having a good teacher in the classroom instead of a damned good one…just is very hard to see. Unlike, say, a salesperson who continously lands the multimillion dollar contract versus million dollar contracts…or the Pro Football Quarterback who gets his team into the Superbowl.

Teachers can be replaced in 3 minutes…and that is being generous. Using me as an example…yes I can be replaced…however it would cause discomfort for the company that employs me. Therefore, they make sure that my wages are not falling behind relative to competitors.

The difference between a 5 year experience teacher and a 20 year one is really not all that great. Sure, it exists, but it is not near the gap as many other careers.

You can see that teaching really struggles on these things. It is no wonder it pays shit. I’m actually surprised it pays as much as it does and expect salaries to trend down even more in the future.

[BlinkingDuck]

If you fail, your students suffer. There is no immediate consequences that anyone can see. Maybe Johnny didn’t become a doctor which he would have if I had taught him instead of you…but who would ever know?

This brings up my favorite, heart warming story about my teaching days. I have several but this is my favorite.

I had left teaching and was out for about 5 years (so this is about 17 years ago or so). I was walking along in some town (Fort Collins) Colorado where I was visiting a friend. Out of the blue I heard ‘Mr Duck?!?’ I turned around and didn’t recognise them. They said “You taught at {insert here} right?”.

Yes I did.

We are the parents of soandso…do you remember him?

OH Sure, I remember him! Good kid.

They insisted on taking me into a local bar and bought me a drink and explained…

The son was going down a bad road. He was getting into drugs and it was getting worse. They had him in camps and were thinking of having him committed (or something). Very rebellous, bad attitude, school was stupid etc.

Then, they said, he had me for a teacher. I taught computer science when he was 16. They said he started out the year the same and slowly they noticed a change. By the end of the year he was rabid about computers and programming and …to make this short…was currently at the Univ of Colorado getting a Masters in Computer Science and, according to them, buring up the courts.

I told them many kids ‘catch fire’…it is not unusual but they would have nothing of it. They were certain it was because of me.

Humbly, I was a damned good teacher. I think I can say say that. I really WAS good damnit! I look back at what I did when teaching and…damn…I really was a ball of fire

Now, if I had been a burned out shell, beaten down…what would have happened to their son? I don’t know…maybe he would have ‘caught fire’…he obviously had it in him. However, maybe not. The point is…one would never know - the difference between failure and success is just not noticable.

[drewtwo99]

Great points and great story BlinkingDuck. I’m glad you made a positive difference in the classroom. Not sure if I did in my 2 years of teaching, but I certainly tried, and I made some great personal connections to a few students who seemed to get a lot out of my class. I wish I had the balls, guts, brains, or whatever it takes to stay in the teaching profession… but it seems that in order to survive for decades in the classroom you have to be damn near invincible. Your points about teacher pay are really quite legitimate, and have made me think about the multiple dimmensions that go into pay. Ultimately, I think that the pay would be worth it if teachers were supported more than they are in this country, but with the current level of support and respect, I wouldn’t even think about teaching unless I was going to make 6 figures.

[vivalostwages]

Here is an article that sheds more light on what teachers are dealing with:

What teachers really want to tell parents | CNN

[Voyager]

@Rand_Rover

LHOD, if you want to make more money, why don’t you go into a field that pays better? Lots of jobs have a teaching component–I, for example, educate my colleagues, clients, and adverse parties all the time. (How’s that last sentence for a straight line?)

Let me get this straight. Your proposal is for all teachers who might make more money to leave the field. Thus the population of teachers will consist of those not smart or competent enough to get other jobs. And this population will educate our children.
And you think good things will happen.

Am I right?

[drewtwo99]

@vivalostwages

Great article, thank you for sharing. I actually had some great experiences with parents… the worst problem I had was a complete lack of parental involvement to the point that it was impossible to reach some of them (so I had to bump their grades up because I hadn’t gotten in contact with them, or tried hard enough, or told anyone, etc).

@Voyager

As much as I may disagree with Rand Rover in general, I can’t say he’s got a bad plan of action for LHOD. Getting out of teaching to make more money in the private sector was the best thing I’ve done in my life. I miss teaching immensely, but I am a much happier person. They replaced me with an inexperienced older gentlemen who may turn out to be a phenomenal teacher, or may turn out to be a complete turd. Who knows? But maybe if enough of the good ones get out of teaching, principals, superintendants, and parents will see that there is a massive problem.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@Voyager

Let me get this straight. Your proposal is for all teachers who might make more money to leave the field. Thus the population of teachers will consist of those not smart or competent enough to get other jobs. And this population will educate our children.
And you think good things will happen.

Am I right?

I think this is pretty much the plan for some folks:

Starve the system of money, while at the same time make loud noises of how terrible the teachers are. When the best teachers leave due to cuts and disrespect from citizens, then declare that the system is “broken”

The next phase is to have private schools take over.

Final phase? Profit!