I trust the minorities living in those buildings in CHOP zone more than I trust your analysis.
Why do you think it’s moral and legal to take over X blocks of a city, restrict access to the families living there (including many minorities), reduce some of the residents access to needed medical assistance (this was one of the complaints for those that required in home visits), and have loud music and drugs and partying late into the night most nights.
How exactly is that similar to the desegregation you referred to?
Ah, I’m supposed to pretend that ‘trail balloon’ had nothing to do with the posts just before yours…I see. Ok, I’ll pretend that it doesn’t, or that there have been several posts in this thread about how this is a prelude to a right wing fascist take over.
So, yes…just a rant. Nothing to do with death camps has been mentioned. Nope, nada. Nothing about fascist take overs discussed. Butter couldn’t melt in my mouth…nor your own. Nope.
Moreover, the president can veto any funding for programs that democrats do want should they try to assert themselves in stripping these agencies of funding.
Going back to the checks and balances discussion, this is how checks and balances can result in political dysfunction. Over the years, congress creates a national security and law enforcement bureaucracy. The bureaucracy works for the president, not the congress. We can easily see how even though there are three branches, they become anything but co-equal.
Naturally, one would ask how Trump could Obama have been so seemingly hamstrung and impotent whereas Trump seems so powerful. It’s because Obama quickly realized that he didn’t have a mandate and accepted that as his political reality, which became even more real when both chambers of the legislative branch fell into GOP hands. Obama and liberal Democrats are also institutionally much less in alignment with law enforcement and the military, both of which are overwhelmingly white, male, and traditionalist, though again, Obama never went there: he has respected the separation of powers like almost every president has.
The difference is that Trump is attempting to assert that the executive is more than just the first among equals; he’s asserting executive supremacy in ways that few other presidents, if any, ever imagined.
Complain to Dr Deth if you want, he is the one who brought “death camps” into the discussion.
In any case, what is happening in China is a problem, and is terrible for many of its people. What this thread is about, however, is not about China, it is about the US, and how we avoid going down the road that leads to where China is.
I just said that I didn’t mean a trial balloon for death camps, but a trial balloon for suppressing dissent. Are you claiming that I’m not arguing in good faith?
And the post immediately above mine said
which is the topic that I was addressing.
Your post that I originally replied to said:
so let me rephrase my original question, which you haven’t answered.
Are you saying that it’s a wrong thing to object to unidentified armed goons suppressing dissent, as long as there are no death camps involved?
It all started with breaking windows and street fights. It ended with death camps. I’d much prefer we stop fascism now rather than waiting until the fake showers and crematoriums are started up.
I agree that there are parallels with ancient Rome, but I think these specifics are mistaken.
The social conflict in Rome sprang from the illegal appropriation of the ager publica, the public fields, by the aristocracy. Calls for land reform were specifically calls for the return of stolen goods.
The murder of Tiberius Gracchus shouldn’t be mentioned in isolation. His brother followed him in his cause, and was also murdered on that basis. Most of the events of the late republican period stem from this issue of the ager publica.
Catiline was active on this issue, and fled Rome to avoid the fate of the Gracchae and others murdered for this political position. Marius, known mainly as the reformer of the Roman military, was also part of the same movement, and Sulla’s march on Rome was specifically to murder him and purge his political supporters.
Julius Caesar was one of these, and took his army back with him to Rome because he also feared murder on the same basis. Caesar was the most successful, of course, and was murdered accordingly.
The Roman Empire also didn’t recover any prosperity over the Republican period. They simply became a brutal despotism. Fire brigades were outlawed lest their members begin discussing politics.
The point being that for the Roman elites only wealth mattered. Harming the poor, violating morality, murdering their opponents, weakening the military and economy of Rome, even sacrificing the Republic itself, all were acceptable to keep some stolen lucre.
The idea is to stop the progression BEFORE there are death camps again.
The actions of the black-baggers in Portland are not a foreshadowing of fascism. IT IS FASCISM. I’m sorry you don’t get that. No, really, I am sorry you don’t get that because you don’t see how serious this situation is, or where can easily lead.
I oppose those deathcamps in Tibet and other places controlled by China, and the shit ISIS did, and every other atrocity you might care to name… but in reality there wasn’t much I, personally, could do about them. Right now, we’re looking at fascism where I live. I don’t have much more power over that, either, but I have a teeny bit and it behooves me to use it, whether that’s my vote, my money, or my screechy little voice on the internet.
Are you saying that it’s a wrong thing to object to unidentified armed goons suppressing dissent, as long as there are no death camps involved?
No, it’s not wrong to object to even identified federal agencies operating in such a way, even if what they are doing is quasi-legal. I think it’s more complex than people are making it out to be, but objecting to such things is the right of anyone to do. I don’t think it’s any indication of fascism, and I think that it’s knee jerking to think that anything and everything is a ‘trial balloon’ of fascism to come or fascism that is supposedly here, but I’m not too happy with what Trump et al are currently doing wrt sending in federal officers to interfere with local situations, which should be being handled by local law enforcement and local political entities. I find it troubling that he is doing so in mainly Democratic areas, and I concede THAT is a worry. But gassing on about how this is fascism is, to me, unhelpful and an over the top knee jerk reaction, and it especially pisses me off when people do this as actual concentration camps and human rights abuses orders of magnitude are happening and get a pass. Not saying you did this, but as I’m skimming the thread it pisses me off how hypocritical some can be…or how cluelessly out of touch and uncaring they can be. And this goes for more than people, but whole countries, who can complain loudly and long about some things while turning a blind eye towards others that are much more egregious because it’s expedient…oh, and you’ll make more money of course.
The founding fathers expected the possibility of a corrupt, criminal president, and they put safety measures in place. They, however, did not expect the possibility of a corrupt, moral-less congress.
Well, the fact that we are talking about Portland is why we are not talking about China. Not every thread has to be about China. Not everyone is a hypocrite if they don’t preface any statement with “China is worse”.
Anyway, I have no doubts that Trump et al, as well as the republican cohort would like to hold on to power, and I also have many doubts that they can do so with a free and fair election.
They know this too.
So, we can take you at your word that the republicans will not do anything fascistic in their last throes of holding onto power against the will of the electorate, or we can be vigilant and not allow them to.
It can only not happen here if we don’t let it. By complaining about people being vigilant against fascism, you are letting it.
At this rate, you may find that you no longer find the need to drag China into every single thread that you participate in, as we find ourselves committing worse atrocities in this here land of the free and home of the brave.
The entirety of your argument is “China is worse! Why aren’t you talking about China? You are a hypocrite if you criticize what is going here without condemning China.”
“The point is this: whether, and how, to police is left to the states and their municipalities. Presidents cannot change that,” the suit says.
“While the federal government may protect its property and personnel, the federal government is constrained by the Constitution from policing the City of Portland broadly speaking, and there is no positive delegation of authority in any law that makes the federal government’s recent forays into general policing in Portland either legal or constitutional.”
In addition, there are suits from the ACLU and the Attorney General of Oregon. I believe the city is also looking into it, if they haven’t filed anything yet. I want to also keep a close eye on how the Portland Police Bureau interacts with the feds vs. obeying the police commissioner, which is the mayor. The feds went around the mayor and police chief to talk with the head of the police union. If it looks like officers are not following their actual chain of command, then it might get extremely ugly. I do not want to see the Governor calling out the national guard, nor am I sure that they would follow her orders if things start shaping up a certain way.
The state troopers have already defied her mask orders, but I think that got dealt with.
This breaking down of some of the most vital norms in our democracy is going to have far-reaching effects.
Also, yes, roving bands of nebulous federal agents who just grab people off the street is fascist. It doesn’t have to be death camps to be fascist. I don’t think Trump is planning for death camps, but I do think he would dearly love to be able to point to cities, states, and individuals that are pissing him off and say “take care of that,” or “make them pay,” and have a goon squad go disappear some people, or smash up the place, or just generally make people afraid to criticize him.
Interestingly, note that the DHS agents there have no Union protection, when DHS was formed, 30000 employees that filled the various duties DHS is now doing had Union protection.
One thing the Union does is protect you from illegal orders. When I was given a illegal order, they had me report it to the Inspector General and ask for the order in writing- which then changed from a illegal order to a order which was legal to the letter of the law, but not the spirit.
And this is exactly why we need police unions despite the recent demonizing of them- those Federal agents have no recourse- they can refuse- and get fired and never work again, losing the job, their home, their health insurance, etc- or they can follow orders. But if they had a Union they could have the Union help them, and the Union could intervene. But the Shrub divested them of any Union protection.
Now yes, if they were ordered to just shoot people down in cold blood, they should refuse- but unless the order is blatant, and a crime against humanity (and this aint even close)- they have to follow orders, even if perhaps they could be illegal, after the courts spend a year deciding. If the orders were blatantly illegal, one of the Federal Judge would have issued a injunction. They arent. They likely are illegal, but not blatantly so.
It is all nice to say, from the comfort of your couch, that they should refuse and lose their homes, their pensions, their health insurance, etc- but I think in reality most of us would put our families first.
They would not follow her orders. The NG was federalized as of 2006. It is now part of the Army reserves. The Gov of each state can indeed call out the local NG without federal permission, yes, but the President is the Commander in Chief.
WOW! YOU SEEM REALLY FUCKING STRESSED OUT ABOUT THOSE REAL FUCKING DEATH CAMPS! HAVE YOU CONDIDERED TALKING ABOUT THOSE REAL FUCKING DEATH CAMPS IN A THREAD SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THOSE REAL FUCKING DEATH CAMPS?