Feedback in Rock 'n' Roll

Not hip. The square-wave tone sounds awful. Tubes, baby.

I am between Little League games for my kids so can’t comment on your post, **Si ** - other than to say that many things that folks say effect tone I can barely hear the difference - but with amps, certain body woods, etc., it jumps out to me.

**Carson ** - we’ve already hijacked this thread and so far no one has complained.
How much do you want to spend?

What are three songs or artists who have a tone you particular want to sound like (well, tone starts with your hands, but let’s assume you can play the songs reasonably well)?

And you basically want to play over drums - be loud enough for that? Do you also want good tone at low, bedroom volumes?

What guitar are you playing?

Answer those questions and I can offer some recommendations…

If it was a '64 Bassman then it was a blackface and not a tweed—completely different animals. Just buy Fender’s '59 Bassman reissue. I’d swap out the speakers for Webers (the reissue Jensens aren’t the same as the originals), and I’d re-tube it, but that’s another story. Here:

http://fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2171000010

However, if you want something to break up at low volumes, as you suggest, then the Bassman isn’t quite the right amp. You need something like a tweed Deluxe for that. Fender has a '57 Deluxe reissue, but it’s hand-wired and expensive. You can build a clone from a kit for under $700 if you’re handy with a soldering iron.

WordMan,not only am I out of touch with current gear,I don’t have any guitarists I want to sound like,but since you play guitar you probably know what I mean when you plug in and start upping the volume and the guitar TRULY becomes a different instrument.Notes sustain,chords crunch.

   The main axes I use,'67 Strat & same year Gibson Std. I always leave the pickup vol. wide open & use a pedal for control. 

  Yes,louder than drums,'though that's a bit deceptive.Meaning to the guitarist.

Is it possible to also use the amp for archtop ,say for the wedding or party gig.Of course different parameters.

  $500.00 or less? I haven't a clue if that's possible.

Subterraneanus,
Tweed it was.And raggedy when I sold it.My brother-in-law was showing me some mag that has vintage gits and gear,there was a pic of the identical that sold for multi-thousands,which I didn’t try to get and probably wouldn’t given the condition.
Originally bought by a bass player,new,doing gigs in Vegas,the original Jensens were crispy.When I asked how old it was he showed me the date stamp in the case.
I had a tech replace a section of tubes with something ( solid state?) because they were getting very hard to find,and it didn’t affect what I wanted out of it.Put in JBL’s.
Yeah,I am pretty handy with a soldering iron.Thanks for the link.

Shouldn’t have sold it, dude—but then you already know that. :wink: I could tell stories. Stupid stories.

Your tech replaced the rectifier tube with a solid-state rectifier (it just pops into the tube-socket). Today there are good rectifiers being made and they’re plentiful, though more expensive than they were when you had that amp. A solid-state rectifier makes the amp sound “tighter” (especially in the bass), with a quicker response and less “sag” (that “spongey” feeling all-tube amps have that many people prefer—it’s a matter of taste).

Some good tweed Deluxe-clone kits:

http://www.missionamps.com/5E3kit.shtml

http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/item.asp?pid=46623&pg=44991&id=5550002

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_50a.htm#5E3

Again, the Bassman needs to be cranked up fairly high before it begins to break up (especially with the stock speakers), although it’s not as clean as, say, a Twin Reverb. JBLs are very efficient speakers and will make a Bassman sound even tighter and cleaner, and make it even harder to overdrive it. I’d recommend something as close to the original Jensens as you can find, and the place to go for that is Weber Speakers:

http://www.tedweber.com/

Again, if you want to play at household-levels and you want to be able to turn it up until the power tubes begin to overdrive, I’d recommend the Deluxe instead. You might also like the Marshall sound (darker, more midrange, less treble and slightly less bass—overdrives more smoothly but lacks the clean sparkle of a Fender). If so, an 18-watt clone (slang for a clone of the '60s Marshall 1974 combo) is something to look at. The current AC-15 Vox makes is pretty good, and overdrives easily. It also has a good clean tone (better than a Marshall’s; different than a Fender’s).

I could go on, but I won’t. :wink:

I really appreciate that my OP has spawned a discussion of the equipment involved.

But…

Could I jump in and ask for your thoughts about the performers who use feedback/distortion and the songs that stand out because of it’s use?

Oops, sorry.

Well, some more recent bands that used feedback were Sonic Youth and Nirvana.

I am just back from a gig and waiting for my adrenaline to decrease, so will pipe up on this topic. The first band that comes to mind regarding an innovative approach to distortion is My Bloody Valentine on the highly influential CD Loveless. Dense, swirling, foggy distortion that is so layered that the tones ring out in a gentle way, resting on the blanket of white noise. Takes a harsh phenomenon and creates its opposite out of the same ingredients. Really quite incredible to take in at high volume in a good room.

Don’t get me started on innovations in guitar tone - it is a history many guitarists take a lot of time to learn about…

**Sub **has done a great job on the Tweed side of things - is that what you want? Any interest in a Marshall-y tone?

I’d say the Yardbirds were the true innovators of distortion.
“Heartful of Soul”, “Over, Under, Sideways, Down” and “Shapes of Things To Come” are some recordings that really stand out.
Also, from the same time (1965 - 1966) Paul Revere and the Raiders released “Hungry”, which featured possibly the first use of a distorted bass.

As for the high volume sound of a guitar (more sustain, more crunch, etc) I have found that a better and less destructive solution is to work on the fundamental signal - the guitar itself. Rewiring a guitar can bring out vast tonal ranges without the need to crank the amp to 10 (or 11). :slight_smile:

Subterraneanus,
I’m glad you went on.That’s helpful,and again, thanks for the links.
(And I didn’t get the humour in your name 'til I typed it)

No,I’m not stuck on Tweeds nor Fenders,just happened to be looking for a small tube amp and that one popped up.Truth is I wanted an Ampeg V4B.

Probably the power supply rectifier. 5AR4? They aren’t especially hard to find but they are getting expensive, around 100 bucks. Thats’ for NOS. Modern tube manufacturing continues for popular guitar tubes, but the longetivity and/or quality control leaves a lot to be desired.

A power rectifier “shouldn’t” affect the tone, but in this case it’s problematic because under high current demand situations a tube rectifier will sag a bit. That’s part of what gives the wonderful boxy crunch at volume. A more modern diode won’t exhibit the soft-start warmup of tube heaters - close to 500VDC will slam into the filter capacitors as soon as the power switch is turned on.

Marty Robbins’ “Don’t Worry (About Me)” in 1961 has a sort of distortion at the end of the song. Supposedly an amplifier crapped out during recording and they kinda liked it, so they left it in the final mix.

Okay - I woke up and am still recovering from the gig - but I don’t know the specifics about a V4B. You can get Ampeg Gemini’s and ReverbRockets used for under $1000, but the biggest issue is reliability. The old amps’ parts were typically rated to last about 10 years, so they got broken in, sounded great, but now are past their expiration date. You can swap in parts, but you have to know how to do it - and be willing to risk mid-gig breakdowns.

Newer amps use longer-lasting parts. If you want to spend $300 - $700, two amps that come to mind are a used Fender Blues Jr. or a used Peavey Classic 30. They are great values - real tube sound, great cleans and nice overdrive tones. Although I don’t like pedals, with each I recommend a decent fuzzbox set very low (dial down the “distortion” or “gain” setting very low on the box) to tighten up the lows and add a tad of compression - more Marshall-y that way.

If you want to spend more, say so. Right now there are a ton of GREAT amps out there - this is really a Golden Age of tube amp design - but the handmade boutique amps get pricey fast…

Common Tater,
Hard to find circa early '80s. The parts you mention are probably what got replaced,in concurrence with Subterraneanus. I sort of follow your explanation,but I’m not adept at electronics.

WordMan,
 You're probably right about the older amps....was in the back of my mind to look around for some,though classifieds never have them.Thanks for the pointers.

I just wanted to duck into this thread to say something about distortion that hasn’t been mentioned. As I understand it, transistors are only able to create odd-order harmonics, which is why transistor amps sound ugly and nasty and don’t do nice, ringing harmonic tones. For example, if you hit your low E string and lean into a transistor amp, it doesn’t do anything. A tube amp, on the other hand, produces even-order harmonics, so leaning into it will produce a high G# harmonic. This is why guitars played through an overdriven tube preamp sound so pleasing to the ear.

When I had a Les Paul Custom, I had to play through a Yamaha transistor amp one time. We did a song where I needed that E + G# harmonic, but the amp wouldn’t do it. I got frustrated and we played that passage again, and I put the guitar right up next to the speaker. Not only would it not create the harmonic, it wouldn’t even feed back. Besides which, it made my Les Paul sound like it was made of cheese. It could have been a $60 Sears guitar, for all anyone could tell by listening. Get a tube amp!