I wonder what other Dopers have to say about the use The Larsen Effect. It is one of the building blocks of the genre. Players the world over have used it to create their signature sounds. Could rock exist without it?
In Pete’s online autobiography, he has just met Jim Marshall (and a drummer named Keith, no less!)…
Can offer some comment, but first, not sure of some things:
what is the Larsen Effect? is that an electronics-jargon way to describe the phenomenon of feedback?
I assume “Pete” is Pete Townshend of the Who?
Could rock exist without feedback? Sure - but it wouldn’t be the rock we know and the electric guitar wouldn’t hold the place it does as THE rock instrument. And by the way, it is more accurate to focus on “distortion” over “feedback” as the key to the rock guitar sound. Feedback is when a guitar’s pickups are stimulated by their own sound coming through a loud amp, setting up a feedback cycle and a howl. Distortion, which is what “Pete” describes in the quote, is “tube clipping” - the signal input into the pre-amp and power amp stages of an amplifier is too far above the rated specs for the tubes - they can’t handle that much signal and so “clip” - i.e., cut out certain frequencies, which makes it sound: a) like the remaining frequencies are being emphasized; and b) distorted, since the continuous wave of sound is being cut up due to the clipping. No feedback cycle involved, just an overloaded circuit. Now, a distorting guitar is more likely to feedback, but that is a different issue.
One note: the basic process that leads to distortion - the dampening/filtering of certain frequencies, leading to the emphasis of others - is CENTRAL to the sound of any instrument. Indeed, a Strad violin is legendary because of the choices that Mr. Strad made in the construction of the instruments which led to specific frequencies getting dampened and others emphasized. Martin acoustics - which led the way in acoustic guitar innovation with an new (for the early 1900’s) bracing system on the underside of the top, which dampened and emphasized frequencies in a way well-suited for the new Dreadnought design and the types of music being played. It just so happens with electrics that the filtering takes place in the amp tubes, not the actual guitar…
Distortion does a few things:
It makes the electric guitar sound like multiple instruments - it fills in the harmonic space in a way a clean guitar can’t, and in ways that other music styles have relied on horn sections or other sets of instruments to do. Legendarily, Tommy Ramone, who co-produced their first album, was a huge Phil Spector fan and wanted that Wall of Sound feel for the Ramones’ record. Because they had no money and no deep musical skills and no arrangements for other instruments to fill in space on their songs, they just used the distortion to fill in and create that Wall of Sound effect
It enables a whole new set of playing techniques - distortion leads to power chords (harmonically simple two-and-three-string chords that fill up nicely with distortion and sound, well, rockin’), long, sustain-filled single-note leads, techniques like hammer-on and harmonic tapping (Van Halen-type stuff) and, of course, feedback-related techniques. That is what is so beautiful about Hendrix - in ways no one had before him (I exaggerate, but you get the idea) he truly played the “electric guitar” exploiting the unique characteristics of distortion and feedback - not just playing a guitar that is amplified. Big difference…
it makes authority figures upset. Always a good thing as far as teens and rock n’ roll are concerned.
I could go on - but this hopefully is a start…
Yes, it’s another name for audio feedback. However, I agree that ‘Pete’ is describing overdrive distortion rather than feedback.
Rock not only could exist without feedback, but it already did, IMO. Feedback was not introduced to rock ‘n’ roll as a purposeful technique until The Beatles released ‘I Feel Fine’ in 1964. I think most music fans would agree rock ‘n’ roll began ~9 years prior to that in 1955. Feedback is somewhat common only in certain sub-genres of rock ‘n’ roll, namely acid rock (Hendrix and Clapton) as well as some heavy metal.
All good. And yeah, for feedback, Lennon certainly asserted that I Feel Fine was the first commerically-popular song to use feedback and that has become the conventional wisdom - I have not researched if there are others.
As for distortion, which is really at the heart of the OP (his topic, not his actual heart, mind you! 
), then of course that appeared much earlier than the use of feedback, whether we are discussing Rumble by Link Wray, work by the Rock n’ Roll Trio, or You Really Got Me by the Kinks, with many, many other examples…
Oh, I don’t know about that. Have you listened to Jesus & Mary Chain’s Psychocandy? they used distortion like a seperate instrument, and you can definitely hear harmonics in the distorted notes. Well, it’s certainly neither Acid Rock or Heavy Metal. Lots of punk & post-punk albums relied heavily on distortion, so pigeonholing it as jsut a ‘heavy metal/acid rock thing’ is pretty dismissive.
BMax
I believe the quote you cited from Ins&Outs&What-have-yous is referring to feedback being confined to heavy meta,l acid rock, etc. Harmonics and distortion are another matter and have nothing to do with feedback.
Thanks for curing my ignorance on the difference between feedback and distortion. I naively thought feedback covered the whole spectrum of guitar-howling-noise-type sound. All of a sudden, his lyric “Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness” makes a great deal of sense.
What really prompted me to start the thread was Townshend’s description of how the sound made him feel. The technique has been used by practically anyone who has ever strapped on an electric guitar, but I’m not aware that any who wrote about it like that.
Neil Young and Crazy Horse-“Ragged Glory”
Guitar Feedback is a complex beast - and not at all like acoustic feedback - that squeal you get when enough speaker output feeds back into a microphone to set up a reinforcement loop.
On a Electric Guitar, to get feedback, you need the guitarists foldback speaker (the one that he hears) to be turned up loud enough to actually vibrate the strings on the guitar - that feeds back into the pickup (which is magnetic, not acoustic) creating the feedback loop. High Gain distortion helps, by isolating the fundamental. You see guitarists doing this by holding the guitar face towards the speaker, sometimes gently shaking or moving the guitar to maintain control. When it works, you get these wonderful sustained notes. When it doesn’t, it just collapses into squeals or silence. The Edge did some great feedback work in the early U2 years, but I think he uses an EBow now.
EBows do a similar thing - they use a magnetic field to vibrate the string and keep it sounding. I don’t think that an Ebow allows direct input from the guitar to control the bounce frequency.
Si
In the 10-part documentary The History of Rock n’ Roll (which is excellent in many ways) there is a chapter called “Guitar Heroes.” Townshend is interviewed and describe how there is nothing like standing in front of a huge crowd with one or more Marshall stacks and a guitar. I have to agree - setting up a big amp, with huge speaker cabs (so you can, in the parlance, “move a LOT of air”) is unique in its badassness. You stand up there, make a couple of scratchy sounds to ensure everything is on and operating - and then you can make things EXPLODE with this huge rock riff. Just too much fun.
A bit more on distortion - it is really like wine. Hear me out: if you drink cheap wine/booze, your hangovers are far worse, right? But if you drink really good stuff, even too much, your hangover isn’t as bad. Well same with distortion - if you play through a cheap-ass amp - especially a solid-state, non-tube amp or a digital modeling amp - or only use a fuzzbox pedal to get your distorted tone - the distortion can be painful. Basically, these amps are trying to replicate natural tube distortion but don’t quite get it right - some of the bad frequencies don’t get filtered out. And your ears pay - in many cases, you feel the pain as you hear the sound - ice-picky highs or thudding, harsh lows. But more importantly, you find you simply can’t listen for long - 30 or 45 minutes, tops and then you just have to bail out. That’s called “ear fatigue” - and it’s a great way to damage your ears (and also a way to figure out if your amp is any good).
Ah - but play through a great, all-tube amp - pure bliss. You can play LOUD and for a long time and it doesn’t affect your ears nearly as much. I know, Pete Townshend has tinnitus and can barely hear - but that is mostly due to being drunk and cranking the volume in his mixing headphones in the studio while he was working on songs - and his exposure to cranked Marshall stacks has been much more than any of us will ever experience. Bottom line is that I can crank my amp very loud, and I get this beautiful wash of tone that is amazing - and play for an hour or three and not have a problem at all.
I think it is disingenuous of Pete Townsend to blame mixing for his hearing loss. I am sure that it a significant factor (headphones are really bad for ear fatigue and high volumes) but the fact that he spent a good portion of his performing career standing in front of a massively loud Marshall Stack has got to have had an impact on his hearing loss. And it is a self perpetuating cycle. Because you have lost some hearing, you turn up your monitoring, which damages your hearing even more. Some people are moving to in-ear monitors with a personal mix. These can be much better, but you still need to watch the levels. I always yell at my kids - if I can hear your music from your headphones (and I’m not wearing them) - IT’S TOO LOUD.
As for distortion - transistor and diode based clipping used in cheap stompboxes and amps can be pretty rubbish, and low bit-rate digital effects are no good, either. The clipping is hard and they usually have crap filters for tone shaping - FET based soft clipping replicates valve distortion much better.
And you can pry my software processing effects rack (Guitar Rig II) from my cold dead fingers, along with my guitar. Modern Effects equipment does not just replicate a (limited) theoretical model of a tube amp, they actually compare real-world hardware with the software output to build the model (convolution). It sounds like the original according to people who review these things - I haven’t got a Marshall to check 
YMMV
Si
I’m neither Pete Townshend nor world famous,but I have severe tinnitus and major hearing loss.You don’t need Hi-watts to do that.Fenders,Ampegs and Traynors work just fine.
I love electric guitar,and the things volume can do.But don’t kid yourself about the damage.
**Si **and **Carson **- sure, hanging out in front of screaming stacks of amps will do in anyone’s hearing just fine, no argument. But one can, if they take appropriate measures, preserve their hearing just fine in those situations with effective earplugs, pointing the amps in the correct direction, etc. I have played in bands for 30 years and suffered no appreciable hearing loss from doing so. On the other hand, I was wrestling with my then-3-year-old daughter one day and she got so excited from being tickled that she squealed with her mouth right up at my ear - I heard a “pop” and boom - a minor bit of tinnitus ever since. Ironic and bizarre that after decades of high-volume playing, I get nailed due to the screech of a little kid. :smack:
Headphones, however, are the kiss of death. They *directly inject * the sound into your ear, and good headphones seal off your ears so you are just getting the pure sound - no buffer of air like when an amp is some feet away. And back in Pete’s day, when hearing loss from music was less well understood, putting on big, powerful headphones and playing them back loud was common. And he had many substance abuse problems and has gone on record (can’t remember where I read it or I would provide a cite) where he would crank his 'phones to obscene volumes in the studio, work late into the night and fall asleep drunk at the mixing board with the headphones on. A recipe for deafness if there ever was one.
So yeah, spending your life in front of a stack is bad news, but headphones are like mainlining and have the potential for doing more damage.
And Si, you sound like you have a good rig and play a bit - but as you say, you don’t have a Marshall. Modeling amps can replicate the **contour **of a tube amp’s frequency output, but they are missing something. Period. It is plain as day to anyone who takes a vintage Marshall, Fender or Vox amp (or a great Traynor or even a Silvertone) and puts them side-by-side a Line 6 or uses Ampfarm through studio software. Modelers sound **kind of **like the real deal, but as if a blanket was thrown over the amp - something is lifeless and deadened about the tone. I think of them as like vitamins - sure you can take a pill, but no human-manufactored vitamin supplement is going to capture all of the nuance and weird little details that you would get from simply eating vitamin rich veggies and other foods. Humans are good, but nature is better, you know? 
That harmonically rich, cascading distortion that comes out of a great guitar playing through a great amp is a unique phenomenon…
I agree that headphones can be a serious killer, and I don’t doubt that they may be a major contributer to Pete Townsend’s hearing issues. And while I like the concept of in-ears, I do worry about the direct injection issue. When I moved to in-ears for my MP3 player, I reduced the volume on all my mp3s to allow me to keep the volume really low - the lowest setting on the player was still too loud.
But performing setups end up being a major battle with volume. Everyone is trying to hear themselves over the other performers, and the drummer always seems to be winning. Everything just naturally cranks up (to 11 if they can ). It is a real battle. In fact, I have resisted the temptation to get a big amp/cabinet - a pair of near-fields or wedges suits me just fine - but you can’t range across the stage. I don’t quite play that sort of music, anyway. I’d like to try some of the new Bluetooth based wireless stuff with inears - a mix of freedom and isolation.
And I’ll get a Marshall Amp one day - after a 60s reissue Strat, and a Gibson SG, and D38 and …
Actually, I’ll settle for the Fender/Roland VG Strat, but that is cheating 
The rig I have is the rig I can afford for the playing I do, and I have heard that even experts cannot pick between the emulated and real cabs in blind tests, and as processors get faster (and more cores) that can only improve. Do I love the warm glow of real valves - yes. Do they send chills up my spine - yes. But … the mighty pound and the wifes (dis)approval generally wins.
Si
I’ve played a VG Strat (Crotalus, if you end up checking this thread out, I found one when I wandered into my local GC). They’re fine - if you are in a band and need to switch tones or tunings on the fly, they are a useful tool, but they don’t compare to the real deal. At least, compared to a Line 6 Variax, the VG S is a Strat so plays nicely in normal-guitar mode.
As for your statement that “I have heard that even experts cannot pick between the emulated and real cabs in blind tests” all I can say is that I would be interested in your own point of view if you get a chance to do the same thing. I have - and find that statement to be ludicrous. The difference between modeled amp tones and real, quality, all-tube amp tones is obvious and significant. Please understand - I am not a Luddite - I would love it if you could buy an amp that truly delivered the best 20 amp tones in one package. But you can’t. The ones that exist are fine - they are useful if you are in a gig situation and need a quick tone change and the crowd will barely notice anyway - but for recording or just if you have invested the time and really learned what you prefer in good tube tone, they don’t come close…
Exactly - which is why I won’t get a Variax and will only get a Strat VG if I like the raw playability and tone. Otherwise I’ll get the guitar I like and fit a VG later.
And that is (possibly) my problem - I can’t really tell the difference between the cab simulations I have (I can spot the amp types). And (not having the money to purchase and play on the various amps) I probably won’t ever find out. But I know the sounds I like to make. And I make them - oh yes, I make them.
Reminds me of an interview I read with the guy who supplied Jimi Hendricks with music gear. Jimi needed a new pedal (Octavia/Octapod - I can’t recall now). He tried every pedal in the stock room, looking for the one. All the pedals were ostensibly the same, but one had an indefinable something that only Jimi could hear/feel.
Maybe you guys can walk into the music store and play identical amps and pick the one that sounds the best. I probably could walk into the shop and try 20 different models of amps and not prefer one above the other in terms of sound (excluding Behringer) - so budget (and mobility) will rule the day. Same with guitars. I have a Squier Protone Strat (topend of the Squier range in '96, Korean made FS with Floyd Rose). I’ve played it for 11 years, and I love it. But when I stuck a Seymore Duncan pickup in it I wasn’t sure I could really hear anything different. It’s hotter and creamier I guess. Won’t stop me replacing the other pickups at some time, but it did make me wonder. Probably just my ears. Maybe when I retire and have lots of time and money I’ll train em - like that will ever happen.
:smack:
Si
so It’s hip to be square?
No, just speaking with a clipped tone
Si (so unhip it’s a wonder my pants don’t fall off)
Possible hijack.
I sold all my gear in the late '80s,and my '64 Bassman Tweed about five years ago,which I now regret,since it was an ideal size for jams
Could you recommend a new amp that fulfills the above criteria ( overdriven tube amp )
that would be about the size of an Ampeg V4B,or the Fender I mention. Four tens or two twelves,machs nix. That hopefully would make the guitar start breathing at a lower level so I can keep the rest of my ears.
I am completely out of touch with current gear.
We could also distinguish two types of feedback: