Fellow Obama-ites: let's be nicer to tighty righties

The BBQ Pit
1

I agree that posts by **Bricker **and **Shodan **and Carol Stream and others of their ilk occasionally make my urine sample come out all purple, and such posts are often not far removed from blatent trolling. (I actually harbor the thought that on the frequent and recent occasions that they have clearly crossed the line, and have admitted as much in their posts, the mods let it go, mostly on the ideological grounds I’m about to propose here.) They serve a useful purpose. Without them, we would be chattering at each other. When we ask “WTF is going on with this McCain gambit?!?!?” we would only have each other’s outside guesses, but with them, we can see that some people at least claim to view bizarre and disturbing behavior as virtuous.

We need to show them, I think, a little more respect. Just a little more. Not because their views deserve respect, mind you, and not because I think they’re sincerely trying to argue points they actually believe, but selfishly because their numbers are decreasing around here and we need a few token tighty-righties to argue with. Despise them if you must (I often find their arguments utterly despicable) but try to restrain your open contempt, because I think this place will be the poorer for their leaving it. As we have seen, they don’t tolerate losing very well, and just now they don’t have many winning arguments, so let’s let up a bit, shall we?

2

Bah. Bricker at least provides a bit of factual content on occasion amid the endless partisan noise; the rest of that crew, not so much. There is no real argument, in most cases; pretty much all I ever hear from these pixies is content-free and worthless party cheerleading and insults. If any of these flaming assholes want respect for their views, they’d better start doing something to earn it, and they’ve been doing a piss-poor job of it so far.

3

From my viewpoint this is a right leaning board. Too many start from the premise that the repubs are actually trying to make America better. I see no evidence of that. I do not draw the line where you guys do. I see too many liberals as enablers. They are too placid in the acceptance of despots like Bush. He should have been impeached then tarred and feathered in public.

4

I think I’d rather be damned with faint praise than the object of the OP’s attempt to be “nice”. I’m sure it’s meant humorously, but you have marginalized them nicely all while proclaiming your support of them. It’s all so muddled here; politics get mixed up with SES, geographical regions, religion (or lack of it), hell even tasts in entertainment. I’m saying it’d be good to try, but I’m dubious as to the results.

Some thoughts:

Palin may have scored points with her base and put some life back into the GOP, but she did not show true leadership qualities. I’m so naive, I think that VPs should show statesmanship. All she really did was try to tear Obama down–she more closely resembled Rush or Ann Coulter than a leader.
I bring this up because I heard something on WBEZ yesterday on my way to work (around 0840 or so)–I cannot now find it, (specifically), and am not about to re-listen to Morning Edition just to locate it for you all. There was a gentleman on, who is powerful in the RNC (I don’t recall his name, sorry), but he holds the #3 position within the RNC(?–I seem to recall the announcer saying that).

Anyway, he said something that almost made me crash the car. He said (I’m paraphrasing) that the GOP had not been doing a good job of selling its vision to the American people. That he realizes that Americans are disgusted with the way congress doesn’t get along and the partisanship. He almost well nigh apologized for the state of things and said he wanted to work to get things on a better course and to actually tackle some of our more serious problems.

Now, I wasn’t born yesterday, so I don’t fully buy his “birds in their little nests agree” stuff, but this is the FIRST time since Bush took office that I have heard anyone of GOP power essentially admit hey, we need to do better. IOW own some of the problem.

It was incredibly refreshing. Constant disparagement (from either side) is isolating, solves nothing and actually makes real compromise difficult. I know some will come in here and say that the GOP specializes in Attack Mode. I agree. I am not a Rep in any way. But think a minute what might happen if instead of pointing fingers, pols (and constituents) actually applied themselves to working together. There will be no singing of kumbaya (and for that I give thanks), but maybe something of merit would come of it.

As to the snark here, well, sorry if what goes around comes around. After all, we are not politicians, nor do we answer to anyone except for some random Mods upon occasion. Could we be more tolerant? Probably. Could we actually talk issues instead of character (or perceived lack of it)–I’d like to think so. Time will tell. I like having conservatives here. They are puzzles to me (and I mean that without snark at all). I like puzzles. I doubt I’ll ever figure them out–I like that too. I just don’t want them in power. :wink:

5

If the OP is serious, I’d have to say that I respectfully disagree. First, I agree with gonzomax. Generally speaking, liberals have to practice supporting their ideas and principles more forcefully, not less. It is unfortunate, but we live in a society where the strength of your position is evaluated not on how cogent and articulate it is, but on how forcefully presented it is. It seems to be the case that people regard a speaker and say, “If he doesn’t appear passionate about it, he must not believe all that much in it. Why should I?”

Read Glenn Greenwald’s “Great American Hypocrites” and a recent post of his to get a good sense of how the thoughtful and polite strategy has been working for Democrats in the past 30 years.

Secondly, I say this in all sincerity, I don’t believe that there is much to learn from these posters. They don’t really put forth any well-thought out arguments. It’s all tu quoque stuff, lies or thick-headed nonsense. Look at Mr. Moto’s “let’s talk about Sarah Palin” thread. It’s nothing but a list of other, pretty much all Democratic, politicians’ children who engaged in wrongdoing.

If I want to see how conservatives are reacting to stuff, there are plenty of conservative websites, including both far right nutjob stuff and places like Time Magazine’s Swampland. I don’t need to read Sam Stone’s endlessly incorrect posts about economics (his predictions about how great the Bush economy will be sure haven’t borne him out correctly), I can see all of the same nonsense anywhere.

Now, I’m not saying that I want them to leave. I don’t want an echo chamber. I just don’t think there’s much point to trying to be nice simply to prevent that from happening. If they choose to leave, that’s up to them.

(All of this of course is moot. They won’t leave - they’ll just post martyrdom posts about how mean everyone is and how unfairly picked on they are. It’s in their constitutions to weep persecution - look at talk radio. Also, look at how long Mr. Moto’s famous resignation lasted, with his shout of “hardened partisanship” over his shoulder.)

6

I admit, I’m not the poster-boy for gratuitous niceness, but I’m only partly kidding. Do they really want us to be as nice as I suggest? Would treating them as I propose in the OP, to prevent them from takng their football and going home to Mama, really satisfy them? I suspect not, but I am giving them a chance to say what an idiot I am and how they’d much prefer the rough-and-tumble of honest disagreement than the patronizing nicey-nice the OP sets forth.

But if that IS the price of having a fulll political spectrum, then I guess I’d rather have that than nothing. So what is it, boys? Do you want to argue your positions, and see them challenged and disputed vigorously, or do you seriously demand that your opponents restrain themselves in the patronizing manner I describe?

7

Yeah, that was kinda my thought. You seem to have added a “not that they deserve it, of course” disclaimer onto nearly every sentence up there. It looks less like you want to be nice and more like you want people to obviously pretend to be nice.

8

The big rhetorical mistakes “progressives” have made over lo! these past few decades have been rooted in a conflation of two loosely overlapping approaches to argument.

There’s the idea that inclusiveness and consideration of all offered viewpoints promotes participation and produces more supportable conclusions. And there’s the idea that discussion can’t start until “both” positions are validated.

The first idea has been proven over and over again, in politics, in business, by community organizers, and in academia, just as examples. But it’s based on some assumptions which make it vulnerable to disruption: the assumptions of good faith participation by all parties, of rational self interest by all parties, and of some common ground in goals, values and desired outcomes.

The second idea is near and dear to both the touchy-feely and the more high minded sorts of liberals, both in higher proportion among the politically vocal than in the general population. It’s an idea that comes from the field of psychology and is specifically useful in relationship therapy, where it has been demonstrated as an effective technique in the resolution of relationship “issues” by individuals who are committed to the relationship. This technique has only two assumptions for use: all parties want the relationship to continue and all other propositions are secondary to the relationship, including the truth value of any professed belief or the practicality of any given position.

The problem in careless application of these ideas together is obvious when you look at what’s missing from the second set of assumptions.

Some of the shit posted over time by the right wing pricks mentioned in the OP, and by other equally prominent turd mongers, has not been in good faith. No, really. And they do not share a vision with you, with progressives in general, with most of your countrymen or with most of humanity. They are not committed to the relationship, and wish for a world in which you were subjugated and mute (or dead and gone). And many of their propositions -“torture is justified and useful in [ x circumstance ]”, “taxation is theft”, “they’ll greet us as liberators”- are so repellent or devoid of available intersections with reality that they call only for swift opprobrium and dismissal, not consideration and certainly not validation as a starting point for discussion.

But I see the OP’s point somewhat. Dismissal and repudiation can be done nicely, if you’re talented enough I suppose. But realistically, there’s more Bidens posting here than there are Obamas. I don’t know that I can hold to the niceness standard. War is not peace, ignorance is not strength and freedom is not slavery.

9

Xenophon has some really good points. I don’t think any civil, honest debate can occur unless all parties bring good faith and a willingness to listen to the table. Since this is a message board primarily comprised of people who believe (either rightly or wrongly) that they are the brightest people in the room, that is not likely to happen. I confess I don’t understand how character denigration and outright hypocrisy in statements made by those who claim conservative as a title can be shrugged off as “just politics”, and yet the claim to not only hold the moral high ground but to have rock solid integrity can be made in all seriousness. Jon Stewart did an evisceration of this hypocrisy the other day. He has Karl Rove talking about the experience Palin has and how it’s all good and sufficient. He then has Karl Rove stating how the Lt Governor of VA (with similar experience, but more of it) LACK of experience disqualifies him as a candidate and shows how the Dems (paraphrased) hate America. It’s ridiculous. Here is the clip, for what it’s worth. If the double standards were even admitted to, I might have more respect for the supporters of this nonsense.

howdoesthisshitstand?

10

You want everybody to be nice to poor, persecuted Republicans on the board. They’re picked on because they’re ‘conservative’ and might leave if their feelings get hurt and all. Right.

The poor wilting violets don’t catch shit because they’re Republicans, not even the ones who respect actual conservative values slightly. They catch shit because they insist on defending the indefensible. It’s a neocon thing. You kick people in the teeth repeatedly and–here’s the good part–then stiffen in outrage and cry"VICTIM!" really loudly. A few artistic tears always help. Works every time.

Okay, so Rove/Shrub are corrupt, venal and screwed over the country. Maverick Johnny McCain, the whored-out little power junkie, and Creationist Barbie are right out of the same mold, but hey! Can’t point out the stupidity of how well that’s worked out! I personally love listening to stalwart, small-government ‘conservatives’ explain their right to dictate religions and morals to other, less enlightened beings. It’s just a warm, gooshy feeling, y’know? All these freedom lovers and warriors for Jesus, putting themselves right out there, man, and all to make sure my insignificant little life can be guided by more enlightened souls. The burden, the burden! Oh, and handing over a considerable chunk of my paycheck to pay for, like an economy in the shitter and okay, that war thing but only liberal haters keep harping about it and shit happens, y’know? And torture. And maybe wire-tapping but those SO don’t count.

Why would we want Republicans to leave and deny them a chance to yell about liberal media?

11

Not really. That seems to be what THEY are requesting. I’m just finding out (or trying to) if the contemptuous condescension they’re asking for is what **Bricker **and Co. really want.

So far, all the intelligent responses --including yours-- seem not to come from their end of the political spectrum. I wonder why that is?

12

There’s not that many of us, and I’m involved in the topic in another thread. That’s one reason.

Secondly, you addressed your OP to “fellow Obama-ites” which seems to exclude us by implication.

Thirdly, when you say let’s be nicer to “tighty righties” it seems somewhat disingenuous, as if I had said “Let’s be more considerate to the left-wing liberal scum”

Fourth, I think you’ve framed your OP poorly. I don’t think it’s really about being nice to people on the right, or nice to people on the left.

For me, the issue is about minimum human consideration necessary to discussion. The dialect needs to be lifted beyond the “I hate you. You’re a contemptible human being.” level for this to occur.

It doesn’t hurt my feelings. It’s just childish and reflects poorly on the person engaging in it, while obliterating the possibility of a meaningful exchange.

It’s hate mongering. The target, whether it is Jews, black, homosexuals, conservatives, or guys that leave the seat up in unimportant. The hate mongering itself degrades the one doing it.

13

So let me get this straight: you’re morally offended because I didn’t refer to you and your kind more decorously? I would be less disingenuous if I had referred to you, perhaps, as “our brethren, the loyal and honorable opposition from a place less radically leftwing than ourselves”? (My own feelings about your loyalty to my country, and your ever-mutable sense of honor, aside.) You get to dictate the entire argument, up to and including what we call you, and what a discussion may and may not be about?

Face it, you have no clue what you want, from a government or from a discussion, other than you’re permanently pissed off at someone, and you feel perpetually aggrieved, which gives you utter license to attack and mischaracterize anyone who dares to disagree with you. But you stand up on your hind legs anyway and whine like the oversensitive PC types you complain about and mock, and scream like a little girl when you think you’re being picked on, or outnumbered.

You’re not the smartest person in the room here, Scylla. You and Bricker may be accustomed to be treated with special deference because you’ve been able to pull that shit on other folks, but it won’t wash here. You’ll either have to get used to treating your opponents with deference and courtesy in order to get back some of the same, or else take a few punches. You don’t get to hit me and then to protest when someone hits back.

You want nice? Then give nice. Or else STFU. Your choice, which you’ve made long ago.

14

See, I don’t give a shit what Republicans want. No, really. If the right-wing shouters don’t feel respected and loved…uh, it’s because they’re not. They’ve behaved like asses, insisting their ‘side’ deserves respect, just because. You know, because, all that warm fuzzy shit liberals get teary about while sipping wimpy white wines and reading Mother Jones. They’re the Party of Goddamned Lincoln (except it’s not mentioned a lot in the south, m’kay? ::winks::slight_smile: and should be respected as such, bitches! Integrity! We’re talking basic fucking decency of man to their fellow men but NOT IN ANY GAY WAY. That’s right out. Decency! Responsibility! Accountability! More fucking integrity! Solid Christian faith! The honest, straightforward AMERICAN values, REPUBLICAN values that, with the help of JESUS the Lord Himself say amen!, made this the greatest fucking country on earth! Ever! So shut up about Rove and Bush and Cheney and McCain being cynical ticks attached to the backside of the body politic. Only liberals who really hate America keep bringing up that stuff.

Makes you want to weep with pride all over your lapel flag pin, doesn’t it?

15

This is getting to be a serious fucking problem – not just here, I mean, but in general. Painting with a broad brush, if a conservative disagrees with you it’s because you’re stupid (which is ridiculous), but if a liberal disagrees with it’s because you’re ***EVIL ***(which is so much worse).

So to my fellow Obama-ites: Grow up, don’t merely pretend to grow up.

16

I already said I wasn’t offended. Just that the request seems somewhat disingenuous as framed.

[quote[I would be less disingenuous if I had referred to you, perhaps, as “our brethren, the loyal and honorable opposition from a place less radically leftwing than ourselves”? (My own feelings about your loyalty to my country, and your ever-mutable sense of honor, aside.)[quote]

That would seem pretty disingenuous, too.

Of course not. Say what you will. You remarked that no conservatives had responded, I offered an explanation.

None of those things are accurate. Creating a straw man isn’t a good faith argument, IMO.

Yawn.

I think I just might be. Anyway, it’s not really intelligence that’s at issue here, it’s what you do with it. Smart people do stupid things all the time. I just see a lot of smart and not so smart lefties behaving very badly.

I think you’re missing the point which I addressed in the other thread. There’s a line. hate-mongering is on the other side of the line. Mean, snarky, insulting, I suppose that’s ok in a heated discussion, but read what was said about Bricker. Hell, read what Veb just said in the other thread. She’s openly spouting hatred.

My point is that this foaming at the mouth hate-spewing isn’t constructive and demeans and degrades the people doing it.

I’ve tried hard not to engage in hate-mongering or respond with real venom. It’s just politics. I’m not looking for kissy kissy. I’m just suggesting the hate spewing is getting a little extreme

17

How can you tell if a tighty righty is taking a dump in your bathroom? Listen at the door, there is an audible click when the rectum snips off the turd.

18

I’d like to point out that Carol Stream doesn’t get shit for her political/philosophical views-she gets it because she’s an asshole and a fucking troll.

19

The clean cutoff means less toilet paper which is good for the environment. Go Green! Shit Republican!

20

Luckily I’m a moderate. I get to be stupid and evil.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Normally I wouldn’t agree with anything Tucker Carlson says, but he was wearing a regular, non-bow tie which must’ve made him more intelligent. He was on C-Span the other day, and he said that the closer we get to an election, the dumber and more agressive both sides get. Could be because all the good arguments and respect have already been worn out. Could just be both sides jockeying for position. Could be that the quiet respectable types have already gotten tired of dealing with the angry jerks and have left the arguments to them. Seems to hold true though.