Exactly.
As I said, because they’ve been right and your side wrong. Factually, practically, and morally.
Your side has pretty much become the living embodiment of the old joke, “Watch him very carefully. Then do the exact opposite, and you’ll never be wrong.”
That’s surprising coming from you. Elitists deserve respect because they “know better”? What happened to the usual “Power to the People” and “Screw the Man” rhetoric you usually spout?
And to follow up on 'They didn’t rock?", I need to know if you expect the Dems to open up a jillion threads talking about McCain actually being not so bad and ripping each other a new asshole.
“Hey, RTFirefly, fuck off with your links to polls showing Obama leading in battleground states! And Shayna, who needs your big-assed providing of cites for what you claim about Obama? Just keep your fucking leftie mouths shut tight okay–I’m trying to watch a ballgame here.”
Is this what you expect Democrats to do here? Why?
This has nothing to do with elitism, and everything to do with being right. Facts are facts, and an “elitist” who opposes torture and mass murder is taking a morally superior position to someone who supports them, elitist or not.
And I have no idea where you got the idea that I think much of the American people.
Why don’t you leave?
Why are you people still feeding the troll?
Well I think highly of the countrymen I know, but unlike our future first lady, I’m not proud of my country. But I’d like to be proud again.
To repeat what I said upthread:
[quote]
originally posted by xeno:
We’ve given consideration, as a group, to…[ul][li]the idea of nuking Afghanistan and Pakistan,[]the practicality and effect of decimating the population of Afghanistan in the Roman sense of that word,[]the idea that we should deliberately stay ignorant regarding the grievances and aspirations which generate recruits for terrorist organizations,[]the idea that our country should torture suspects and deny them due process,[]the idea that we should invade a country which had never attacked us, depose its leader and occupy its lands because we suspected they might have nerve gas and might want to develop nuclear weapons.[/ul][/li][/quote]
Those are immoral and foolish ideas which, once entertained as “rational” are toxic not only to civil debate but to civil liberties. They have no place in intelligent political discourse and shame on this country for receiving them without evident ridicule or irony.
When will we return to liberty in this country? Surely not until we hang -figuratively or literally- the purveyors of this poison.
Or, they could just keep their stupid mouths shut, yes.
I’m sick of being told I’m stupid for listening to what democrats say on a silly message board because, you know, it’s just a silly message board. Because, you know, even though this is a silly message board you are on that silly message board telling me not to listen to what people say on silly message boards but I am supposed to listen to your silly message to me on the silly message board on which I am not supposed to pay any attention because it is a silly message board.
Let the monkeys fling their poo all over the damn place and ignore it, because, you know, it’s just a message board.
It’s not a respectable board dedicated to acting like adults and fighting ignorance or anything.
If I agree, I should listen. If I don’t agree, I should ignore it because it’s just a silly message board and I should vote your way anyway or I’m “unfit to be a voter.”
Place cracks me up sometimes.
You want people on a message board to shut their mouths? Wouldn’t that be a silence board?
It’s a mystery to me.
I love it.
Way to go,PRR. I guess you’ve never learned that ad hominem attacks are an open admission that what was said originally was correct. Since you can’t refute it, you attack the messenger. Thank you for openly admitting that the conservative viewpoint is correct.
Hardly. Is calling Nazis scum an admission they were correct ? Calling someone names . . . means you’ve called them names. Nothing more.
And the “conservative” viewpoint, as exemplified by the ones in power has been a dismal failure on all levels. Hardly “correct”.
By not being Carol Stream. A dreadfully low bar, I know, but there it is.
Way to answer the question. Why do you suppose that eleanor rigby thinks she deserves respect?
Well, for a second there I thought some actual communication might take place. Those of you on the right and left engaging in this silly sniping, thanks for doing what you do best and destroying any possibility to find common ground. Good work.
RTFirefly: Thanks for trying. I do appreciate it.
I would tend to agree with this statement, noting however, that among a number of “conservative” posters, too, hatred and scorn has been the hallmark of their posts–and continues so to this day. Look at all the posters in the threads related to this thread’s theme who bring up the matter of being called traitor or fool for having opposed the Iraq invasion in 2002 and early 2003. There are still Right leaning posters who continue to post along those lines. Back in the days of the Clinton impeachment proceedings, there were a lot more Right wing posters and they included many who were every bit as stupid/hateful as the stupid/hateful Lefties posting today. D’you know when I noticed the disappearance of Right leaning posters? When the amount of information that Bush and Company had lied us into Iraq and then thoroughly mismanaged the occupation began to become overwhelming. I do NOT think that they were driven off by TRUTH, but I do think that they simply could not face either defending the indefensible or admitting previous errors. (Several Right-leaning posters who remain actually have posted that they have had to change their opinion of Bush and his policies. A few of the Right leaning posters who remain continue to be as stupid/hateful as several of the more obnoxious Left leaning posters.)
This, I believe, is very accurate.
I would mostly agree with this, except that I would note that there was not nearly as much pushing from the Left as pushing from the news. As I noted, I think it just got difficult for some posters to deal with the news from Baghdad and Washington. This is not to say that all felt that way or that the Left had TRUTH on its side, only that after crying (or watching quietly as fellow believers cried) “traitor,” “fool,” “Islamist apologist,” or whatever for so long, they found it difficult to continue posting in this forum. (I suspect that RTFirefly’s position might confirm your beliefs, but I am not really saying exactly the same thing that he is; I do not claim that eight years of “evil” chased away Right leaning posters, only that there were a few topics that were so prevalent in which the Bush claims were so spectacularly wrong that it made ongoing participation difficult.)
I have no love for the screamers on the Left (and if you vist the periodic Pit threads in my honor, you will find posts from that crowd very much in evidence), but I am having a difficult time swallowing the claims that the Right was simply “chased away.”
Very true.
bolding mine
Contains truth, but is not strictly true. It is more difficult, of course, but the conversation can still be carried forth simply by ignoring the shrillest, silliest voices. There is already one poster in GD (frequently associated with the Left, but actually a bit of an odd duck that hates both ends of the political spectrum but rails against the Right because they currently hold the White House and the Supreme Court), who is generally ignored by all but the newest posters. That poster is so shrill and so obviously unconnected to reality that most folks simply do not respond to the poster’s submissions. There are a couple of posters on the Left and Right whom I do not engage except to correct clear errors of fact. It can be difficult to do that, but it is not impossible.
I began composing the previous post just after the second post of Sam Stone’s to which I responded and had not yet seen the nonsense involving the stone throwers before I hit Submit.
I am actually going to address this retarded comment. Two things:
First of all, I don’t “think I deserve respect”, I know I deserve respect. Furthermore, I know I am respected, both here and in RL for my actions, my character and my role in my community, my family and my job.
Secondly, I don’t deserve respect for drinking Chardonnay (which I don’t like and can’t spell), arugula (ditto) and for living on the east coast. I don’t live there. It was a humorous remark made lightheartedly with my real point (when have the conservatives here ever shown us respect? Hell, when have the conservatives in RL shown liberals respect?) being not humorous in the least. I mistakenly thought that the mix of the two would be obvious. How wrong I was.
I am interested (mildly) in knowing why you think I think I deserve respect. I’m curious by nature, so I’ll play. Why do you think “I think I deserve respect”?
levdrakon–I cannot speak for other Dems or liberals here, but for myself I will say that being castigated however civilly in the Pit for the very behavior that is not only rampant but endemic by the so called injuried party broke the back of my patience and forbearance. Enough is enough. Take the mote out of your eye and all that is what I say to this tempest in teapot.
Very well posted tomndeb. I agree that the polarization gets us nowhere*, but I am still waiting for some personal ownership from the conservative side that perhaps they have been extreme in their vocalizations and insults. I do not see why this is all one sided. Yes, they may be outnumbered, but they make up for that in vociferousness. I don’t normally take part in political debates because I get angry and start to snipe. I am not “one of the usual suspects” when it comes to derailments of issues threads. But this whole airing of grievances has tried me sorely.
*which begs the question: where do we want to go? What is the goal of political threads? Scoring points off your opponent? Fighting ignorance? Providing a another POV? All 3? None of the above? Surely the end goal decides the tone and content. I’m not at all sure that any poster here has started a political thread with strictly information and education of all in mind. I’d like to see some of those kind of threads.
80% of Americans think the country is “on the wrong track”.
No, “bluster and sniping” comes from people who don’t have the facts on their sides. The problem isn’t failure to listen to what you have to say, it’s that what you have to say is bullshit.
Facts do have a real existence, outside the realm of simple debate - even what that debate is, from at least one side, simple denial of facts and assertion of fantasy. The contentiousness you personally so often encounter here isn’t “both sides refusing to listen”, it’s *your *refusing to listen. You may find it comforting to say, as you so often do, that you’re being picked on for being “conservative”, but you’re not - people are trying to fight your ignorance, and you’re refusing.
Utter horseshit. Yes, Katrina was a human disaster. The failure/refusal of the Bush Administration to do anything of significance to help rebuild NO is the fault of the Bush Administration.
Some of us believe in assessing responsibility where it belongs, even when it falls on ourselves. You have never, ever done that - it’s always some fucking excuse to foist off responsibility on somebody else.
How’s that search for Saddam’s WMD’s coming? You remember, the ones you spent literally years insisting were there, only to back off to some lame story about how “everyone” thought they were there, and they could have been there, and things just happen, let’s move on? Those? That’s just one example of how you still have not been able to accept the concept of fact.
No more of this “Well, both ‘sides’ do it” from you. Learn to accept responsibility for your actions and statements. Learn what reality means. Accept that there *is *a reality. Or accept that your utter lack of credibility here is totally the result of your own actions and statements, not “the other side’s”.
And yet, at the time, you were crowing about how the recession was Clinton’s fault, due to some business cycle theory, and that Bush’s brilliant economic plans would lead the country to new heights of prosperity, etc. You may not wish to remember that load of horseshit, but there are those of us who do. So can you explain your change of mind here, if in fact that is what it is, and not merely another reality-free attempt to have something that appears to be a “debate”?
God Almighty, you’re serious!
When come back, bring facts. Not lies. “Without a recession”? You’re really serious.
When you can present something that is the truth, as a result of a legitimate truth-finding process and not your usual simple partisan talking points, you can say that. You have not, and obviously just don’t give a damn.
Remember the Kyoto Treaty? You were strongly against that at the time, remember? It was going to be economically disastrous, remember? yet “just about every other government on the planet” is going ahead with it.
Fact, Sam, facts. Your Saint Ronald used to call them “stupid things”. He was wrong. The *facts *aren’t what’s stupid.
Another common talking point. A fine excuse to continue doing nothing. But still another of your inveterate lies.
If you had, that would be a first for you. But you didn’t. You have spouted the usual righty talking points that conveniently let the righties and the government they have created off the hook for any responsibility for their actions or positions.
If you were discussing matters that really were one opinion vs. another, you might have a point. But those matters are all fact vs. fantasy. They are not equivalent. Fact wins. Deniers of fact lose. You lose.
You don’t fucking get that, either. People who care about their country and the world are angry at those who have fucked it up so heavily in so many ways, and refused to accept their responsibility for it. It is not about power, but about the utter misuse of that power. Something you are utterly unable to grasp, as all the last eight years have shown. And that inability to let your ignorance be fought is your own fault, nobody else’s.
It is not possible to conceive of Obama, or anyone for that matter, screwing up so totally. Nor is it possible for anyone but a tighty righty like yourself dismissing the monstrosity of this administration as “mistakes”, as if they were contained, small, disconnected events in an essentially-decent whole. Yet that’s all you are capable of admitting, and it’s doubtful you even agree fully.
We have “tested your ideas” for almost 8 years now. The results have been disastrous. That’s not “theoretical”.
Aggressive war, economic disintegration, torture, environmental destruction, etc. are just “not so perfect”?
Grow the fuck up. Or at least get the fuck out of your comfortable little cocoon up there. Get some clue about how this “reality” stuff works, what a “fact” is, what “responsibility” is. Or keep being a laughingstock. Your choice;.