Female-Only Services

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

@Dewey_Finn

But there are many other livery companies that hire and are aimed at men. So men are not denied the opportunity to work at or use the services of a livery company.

I agree that this is true in practice, but not that it’s formally true as written. Men are being denied the opportunity to work at or use the services of a livery company – the one in question. It is structurally the same kind of argument they used to use to justify segregated facilities - separate but equal. It’s a much better argument in this case than it was in those cases, but I think it’s formally equivalent.

Back then, segregationists couldn’t make any reasonable argument other than a formal equivalence. They couldn’t say “this is why it’s actually good to have separate traincars.” I think we can make a good argument that a livery service for women is totally OK and is good for us. The way I look at it, that’s the difference, not that the discrimination isn’t happening.

[Una_Persson]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

If you don’t mind a question: if you add up all the plusses and minuses of both, which treatment do you prefer?

If I add up all the pluses and minuses…mind you, it’s difficult to separate out the overwhelming joy at just being me for the first time in my life. But I would say generally speaking I do like the way I’m treated. I like the way that if I want to I can approach a stranger and ask for help and I don’t get an automatic defensive reaction, especially from other women. Authority figures behave differently to me - police and security folks are very polite, for example. The TSA treats me very well compared to the old me. And other people just treat me better. I love being in the society of women, where I belong. I love being close to people, emotionally, physically, and without subtext or it going anywhere.

Women can hug, cry on each others shoulders, sit close side by side, give a neck rub, and it doesn’t mean anything sexual. It’s not a come-on, it’s just a sharing of space. I was feeling ill recently on a plane and the lady next to me could hold my hand while I waited for the pain to stop, and there was no subtext other than “hey, I’m another human being showing compassion.” In the male world I lived in, it seemed everyone was desperately running around with a subtext of “no homo! No homo!” and they couldn’t be close.

Yes men look at my body, and proposition me, and invade my personal space. Sometimes they really invade my personal space, and I have to get angry with them to stop. Sometimes they talk down to me, especially auto mechanics, plumbers and electricians, and other engineers.

And then men also give me a hand to help me off the bus, they run to open the door for me, they pull my chair out for me, they lift my roller bag into and out of the overhead bins for me, and they also take my arm to walk me to my car to “keep me safe.”

So it sounds like I’m enjoying the one side of the chauvinistic sword while getting cut by the other side, yes? If I look at everything in isolation in that chauvinistic boundary then it’s probably a break-even - for me, personally. I’ll wager most natal women will feel the opposite of me, because they have lived their whole life being talked down to, harassed, threatened, and denied opportunity. I never for a minute delude myself that I didn’t have a white male privilege for some of the toughest times of my life.

On the greater subject of cabbies, yes, I get propositions from them, and wolf-whistles, and comments about my legs, etc. I’ve never been asked if I’m a “working girl” or “like to party,” but I’ve felt the weight of their stares and then some. I’ve also had them touch in inappropriate places “helping me into/out of the cab.” So yeah, I understand the why of female cab drivers.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

Thanks for the detailed response, Una.

@Una_Persson

I’ll wager most natal women will feel the opposite of me, because they have lived their whole life being talked down to, harassed, threatened, and denied opportunity.

It’s also possible that they’re more likely to take the plusses for granted.

[ZPG_Zealot]

@Disposable Hero

What she described isn’t a vieled threat, its a very specific threat, and men have also the right to go about their day to day lives without being threatened with violence or the fear of violence.

Which every man on earth may avoid by only addressing and interacting women they do not know in a polite, formal manner. I have never in my life flirted with a man. I don’t even like to engage in conversation with men. But I still get harassed. Hell, sometimes I think would wear burka if it meant never having to talk to a man. But you know what, I’ve talked to with plenty of Muslim women on my campus that wear full face veils and even gloves all the the time in public. They get harassed, propositioned and groped also. It’s absolutely ridiculous the extremes a woman has to go to to be left alone. Literally the only thing that seems to work is looking them straight in eye and saying “Touch me and I’ll send you to the ER.”

[ZPG_Zealot]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Thanks for the detailed response, Una.It’s also possible that they’re more likely to take the plusses for granted.

Or think that the “plusses” are not worth the minsuses.

[Dave_Hartwick]

@ZPG_Zealot

Which every man on earth may avoid by only addressing and interacting women they do not know in a polite, formal manner. I have never in my life flirted with a man. I don’t even like to engage in conversation with men. But I still get harassed. Hell, sometimes I think would wear burka if it meant never having to talk to a man. But you know what, I’ve talked to with plenty of Muslim women on my campus that wear full face veils and even gloves all the the time in public. They get harassed, propositioned and groped also. It’s absolutely ridiculous the extremes a woman has to go to to be left alone. Literally the only thing that seems to work is looking them straight in eye and saying “Touch me and I’ll send you to the ER.”

Have you tried partying?

[snowthx]

We are getting distracted by our misandrist doper. Getting back to the OP, after thinking about it - I have no problem with a female-directed livery service. I don’t see it being any different than a woman wanting to have a female doctor or masseuse, if that is what makes her more comfortable. Same for female-only hotel floors. As a male, I do not feel infringed-upon by the existence of such things.

Likewise, any company that employs female drivers - my question is, can the driver decline to provide service to anyone for any reason? Meaning, can they say “no” if a male is calling for a ride? I would assume they can. Now, if they were to charge men more than women then that would be a problem on principle, but declining service for whatever reason, seems OK.

[Namkcalb]

@Una_Persson

snip

Once again, I really appreciate the perspectives you bring to the forum. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

@snowthx

Likewise, any company that employs female drivers - my question is, can the driver decline to provide service to anyone for any reason? Meaning, can they say “no” if a male is calling for a ride? I would assume they can. Now, if they were to charge men more than women then that would be a problem on principle, but declining service for whatever reason, seems OK.

I think it is an extreme overreaction for a woman to refuse a vetted professional cab driver over nothing but her sexist predjudices.

On the other hand, female only cabs would give female cabbies a work environment safe from unknown drunken and aggressive men. A sadly far from delusional risk.

[ZPG_Zealot]

@Namkcalb

a vetted professional cab driver

Who do you think these cabbies are, Secret Service? I’ve known people who don’t even have the legal right to work in the United States get jobs with cab companies.

[even_sven]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Thanks for the detailed response, Una.It’s also possible that they’re more likely to take the plusses for granted.

That or we didn’t ask for the plusses, often they aren’t actually plusses (thanks, dude, but I am actually capable of opening a door), and we’d rather be treated like normal human beings that some special class.

[Una_Persson]

@even_sven

That or we didn’t ask for the plusses, often they aren’t actually plusses (thanks, dude, but I am actually capable of opening a door), and we’d rather be treated like normal human beings that some special class.

Part of it is flattering to one’s ego. If you have been ignored and faded into the wallpaper for decades, and suddenly there’s a lot of positive attention directed in your life, it really does feed your ego.

At the same time, the negative attention (such as, cab drivers leering) comes with it. It’s give and take.

The perspective is not meant to be representative of the general population.

[even_sven]

@Una_Persson

Part of it is flattering to one’s ego. If you have been ignored and faded into the wallpaper for decades, and suddenly there’s a lot of positive attention directed in your life, it really does feed your ego.

At the same time, the negative attention (such as, cab drivers leering) comes with it. It’s give and take.

The perspective is not meant to be representative of the general population.

You’re fine. You’ve given an honest assessment. Unfortunately, a lot of people are going to take this as proof that they are secretly doing us a favor when they try to grab our butt on a crowded subway.

[Polerius]

Not sure if it has been brought up yet in this thread, but if statistics show that the probability of being mugged/attacked by a black customer are higher than by a white customer, can that be used to allow cabbies to only pick up white folks?

Because I assume that this “services with women-only passengers are OK” reasoning is based on the fact that the probability of being mugged/attacked by a male customer are higher than by a female customer.

Also, if I’m not mistaken, in some places it is illegal for taxi drivers to refuse to pick up a customer from “bad parts of town” that have high crime rates. If this is true, which parts of the have these laws, and in these locations, if the safety of the cabbie is not enough to allow him/her to refuse a customer from a bad part of town, how can they allow him/her to refuse a customer because they are male?

[Una_Persson]

@even_sven

You’re fine. You’ve given an honest assessment. Unfortunately, a lot of people are going to take this as proof that they are secretly doing us a favor when they try to grab our butt on a crowded subway.

If “a lot of people” means the very few people reading this thread on this message board who somehow take my post as any sort of proof for an incredibly complex sociological phenomenon…I guess the number could be non-zero.

[bengangmo]

@Polerius

Not sure if it has been brought up yet in this thread, but if statistics show that the probability of being mugged/attacked by a black customer are higher than by a white customer, can that be used to allow cabbies to only pick up white folks?

Because I assume that this “services with women-only passengers are OK” reasoning is based on the fact that the probability of being mugged/attacked by a male customer are higher than by a female customer.

Also, if I’m not mistaken, in some places it is illegal for taxi drivers to refuse to pick up a customer from “bad parts of town” that have high crime rates. If this is true, which parts of the have these laws, and in these locations, if the safety of the cabbie is not enough to allow him/her to refuse a customer from a bad part of town, how can they allow him/her to refuse a customer because they are male?

Liveried cabs are not allowed to pick up “flag down” passengers

[Polerius]

@bengangmo

Liveried cabs are not allowed to pick up “flag down” passengers

Not sure how this relates to the questions I asked. Can you clarify?

[bengangmo]

@Polerius

Not sure how this relates to the questions I asked. Can you clarify?

Liveried cabs are not going to be refusing to pick up passengers from the roadside based on their appearance,

So the situation is not really that analogous.

[Polerius]

@bengangmo

Liveried cabs are not going to be refusing to pick up passengers from the roadside based on their appearance,

So the situation is not really that analogous.

How is the proposed women-only liveried cabs system going to work? You call the company, and they ask “Are you a woman?” and proceed accordingly?

If the above is legal, then why can’t a no-blacks-due-to-cabbie-safety liveried cabs system work the same way? You call the company, and they ask “Are you white?” and proceed accordingly.

So, I don’t see why you are focusing on liveried vs roadside cabs. Restricting the class of allowed passengers should come with similar logistics, whether the class of passengers is gender or race based.

[bengangmo]

@Polerius

How is the proposed women-only liveried cabs system going to work? You call the company, and they ask “Are you a woman?” and proceed accordingly?

If the above is legal, then why can’t a no-blacks-due-to-cabbie-safety liveried cabs system work the same way? You call the company, and they ask “Are you white?” and proceed accordingly.

So, I don’t see why you are focusing on liveried vs roadside cabs. Restricting the class of allowed passengers should come with similar logistics, whether the class of passengers is gender or race based.

shrug

Don’t care.

If they want to differentiate themselves that way, with all female drivers and only lady customers - I don’t care.

Maybe it’s a logic fail on my part.

Still don’t care

I wish them well

[blindboyard]

@Malacandra

So employees can die at work from (a) misadventure or (b) homicide, and we have two groups, X and Y, and group Y is largely protected from (a), and you throw up your hands in horror and cry “Criminy! Look at the proportionate danger Group Y are in from homicide!” ?

Or to put it another way, “Yes, men are at greater absolute risk of dying from homicide, but since they have so many other ways to die as well, we should be concerned about women’s risk”?

That BJS link I posted says women are 80% of workplace murder victims, incidentally.