Well, since you said “partly” in your earlier post, I suppose it would be hard to argue against that since “partly” can mean almost anything. But it’s one of those things that is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to prove so I’m not seeing much value in debating it. For me, I’m going to give “educated, self sufficient women” the benefit of the doubt that they mainly come to their beliefs honestly, and thoughtfully. YMMV.
Haters exist in every political/social movement.
We shouldn’t deny their existence but we shouldn’t take extremists to represent the mainstream.
Or perhaps because people on the left have been telling them that to be a feminist, you must support abortion, oppose the death penalty, etc. for a whole bunch of positions having nothing to do with the notion that women and men are equal.
And the right gets a good deal of help in promoting the view of feminism you mention. Often from the feminists themselves.
“Rape is a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.” Darn that right, for saying something so misleading and false about feminism!
Regards,
Shodan
I’m not sure what you’re arguing for or against. I think you’ve assumed I think a bunch of things I didn’t say.
That’s pretty much what I said in the next post, so I agree.
Sure, that must be it. I await your cite.
Can I call 'em or can I call 'em?
If feminists who are liberals oppose capital punishment, I think it has far more to do with “liberal” than “feminist.”
Sure, I can give some things to handwave away.
NOW claims on its website that supporting abortion is part of "who we are’.
You can’t. This was not out of context.
You claimed you wanted cites of feminists pushing the notion that abortion is part of being a feminist. You now have them. Neither of them are right-wing cites.
Regards,
Shodan
No, my “cite” is the majority of self-proclaimed feminists. Most of whom at best express contempt and paranoia towards men.
Many “Pro-This” movements often, intentionally or not, take on an “Anti-That” message instead.
Many “Pro-Minority” activists often end up coming across as “Anti-White” instead. Many feminists often end up coming across as “Anti-Men” instead.
Considering how many Dopers are “self-proclaimed feminists”, including myself, this seems like just so much nonsense. Can you give some cites from Doper feminists?
You’re so good at recognizing the historical imbalance, oppression, brutality, etc., towards groups like black people and homosexuals – are you really blind to the historical imbalance, oppression, brutality, etc., towards women?
I suspect that most of the women you talk to just don’t like you. Just a guess on my part.
No, the people who tried to kill Erin Pizzey for daring to report that domestic violence tends to be mutual would be a much better example of that. But I’m sure no true feminist would have done anything like that.
I wanted a cite for this:
Your cite for the whole bunch of positions was two links about abortion. Surely if this message is so loud and so widespread, you can cite your entire proposition and not one portion of it. What’s the rest of the bunch, by the way? Cite them all. Here’s what NOW says:
There’s nothing in there that says you can’t be a feminist if you oppose abortion, as there are a bunch of other official priorities. I can understand why someone who opposes abortion would choose not to join, but they don’t make the kind of blanket assertion you are attributing to them. Jezebel does and I think it’s a legitimate topic of debate, but considering the breadth of your claim, this is awfully weak.
Shocking, I know.
Oh boy, here we go again.
Rape Culture. If something is so pervasive, it is as good as institutional. And only a concerted effort by the institution can address it. Personally, I don’t think US colleges are a rape culture. I do think the US military is. I also think the jails and prisons of the US are as well: so if it’s feminist who best know how to confront a rape culture and reform it, then please go to work on behalf of the vulnerable guys behind bars. Unless all you really care about is your own ox.
What I really despise isn’t any ideology, but its pundocracy. Hey! I want to stay in nice hotels and talk at colleges, book-signings, at cons and on TV & radio, and eat at banquets and take groupies of my gender of preference in different cities back to my room. I want to write thin books thinly researched, or rather oversee their writing by hirelings. Nice work if you can find it, and that’s what a lot of feminist seem to be. And
MRAs, Tea Partiers, environmentists, TED blatherskites, etc etc.
Maybe that’s because the demonizing of feminism has left only those on the fringe, such as you describe, who will call themselves by that name. It’s quite comparable to the word liberalism. At one time, most people who had, well, liberal, ideas, called themselves liberals. Now, you might be surprised at how many perfectly liberal people won’t name themselves that, for fear of right wing demon-labeling. It works, believe me.
I know a lot of conservative people, and I won’t call attention to either my liberalism or my feminism (which to me are not divisible, you are either for equality or you aren’t), which have not changed particularly in the past forty years, because of the villifying. And I am not famous for my desire to blend in. What about those who would suffer quite a bit more, because their workplace or relatives are so contemptuous of either of those names? As is well-exemplified by the pugnacious ignorance of the OP. Not to mention yours.
And I will still respond the same. I do not make or break the laws, I vote for legislaturists who do so. If they decide something is a crime with a death penalty, all I want is for it to be applied equally. What will qualify for a death penalty will always be changeable. Now it is murder, the way things are going, food hording or water hording may end up a death penalty crime [especially if we move into some almost-apocalyptic situation where water becomes almost impossible to find …]
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I don’t really see how it can be debated. I wasn’t asserting the only reason some people aren’t feminists - or the only reason that feminism gets a bad rap - is a right-wing smear campaign. That’s why I said “partly” in the first place. But I don’t think you can really argue that many social conservatives talk about feminism that way and that that affects the way a lot of people look at feminism. Shodan seems to think the left or left-wing feminists are to blame for that, but I’ll point out that they had a lot of help. There’s a reason that a lot of people who’ve never read Kate Millet or Susan Brownmiller or Andrea Dworkin are always able to dig up the same handful of horrible quotes and say “this is what feminists believe.” (Rather than, you know, “here’s what a couple of feminists wrote a generation ago.” And no, I haven’t read those authors either.) There’s a lot of discussion of rape culture online, but you never see anybody in the mainstream saying this stuff. It’s easy to understand why quotes like these live on in people’s memories, but it’s also true that people who oppose feminist goals for one reason or another have put a lot of effort into making sure these quotes a major part of how the public views feminism.
I wonder if that’s almost inevitable. To be communist for example means you are anti-capitalist, period. I think a lot of feminists are actually just humanists though.
I’m glad I seem to be wrong about feminism and the death penalty. I’m a liberal and generally a supporter of feminism but I’ve always been taken aback at how vengeful and judgmental feminists can be. Some of them seem awfully conservative.