Feminists treat men badly. It’s bad for feminism.

I’m not the one who brought it up, and I’m the one who keeps saying it should be left out. The only reason I said it is because I don’t like it when people speak for me or lie about me, so I correct them. If you’re done talking about it, so am I.

And you’re DOING IT AGAIN. You’re still talking about me. This is not about me. I am not here to prove anything to you.

And your statement is completely illogical. What I say elsewhere has no bearing on whether my statements, or the article I posted, harms or helps feminism.

For God’s sake, could you stop deflecting and trying to make this about me and get back on topic?

Read the article again. Discuss it. What do you think of the article? That is the topic, not me.

The connection needs to be a little stronger than that: your grandfather took something from my grandfather, enabling the accumulation of wealth and power at the expense of my grandfather. That wealth and power has been passed down through generations to you. At this point, maybe you should give a bit of that wealth and power back to me. It’s not that I should have an advantage over you; rather, some of the unearned advantage you have as a result of your grandfather’s misdeeds should be given to me. You should, in other words, give up a bit of your unearned advantage over me

I’ve discussed that. It’s penny-ante bullshit. It’s not worth much discussion, unless you’re interested in dragging down feminism as a whole. Are you?

“Racism is wrong” is a platitude. It’s step 2 that’s the hard part. When a white dude who’s literally never been discriminated against in his life – say, me – says “racism is wrong and here’s what we should do about it,” that ain’t the same thing as when Martin Luther King says what we should do about it.

And especially when a white dude’s entire conversation about racism is like, “I’m the least racist person you know, but black lives matter is totally missing the point, you should all be talking about how all lives matter, and maybe you need to focus on black-on-black crime, why aren’t black leaders talking about that, and where are the black fathers?” it’s a little hard to take that white dude seriously.

When have I suggested anyone’s views be dismissed?

I’m not qualified to have my opinion about sexism against women be equal to that of a woman. I take my cues on this from women, and the vast majority of the women I’ve spoken to on this issue feel differently than the article you linked.

We’ve said equivalent things to this many times. Sexism is always wrong, and sexism against women is a major problem in our society. Sexism against men is not a major problem in our society – it’s a miniscule problem.

Whenever I hear anyone say “I’m the least racist person you know”, or anything like that, I strongly suspect that they have very little understanding of racism. Even “I’m not racist”. One of the biggest things about racism is that very few people with racist views actually know that their views are racist.

Fine, then you’re done here.

You don’t get to tell me that discussing it further means I want to drag down feminism. Haven’t you figured out that I’m immune to that kind of crap yet?

If you have nothing more to say, fine. I’ll discuss it with others if they care to comment further. Thanks for your contribution.

Are you racist?

I hope not. I strive to not say or do racist things, and challenge those racist actions and words that I see others say or do. In the past I have said racist things, and failed to challenge the racist words of others, and I’m very regretful for having done so.

That’s absurd. Sexism is not just about women. It’s an objective issue that anyone can discuss and have an opinion about.

Now, if you’re talking about the experiences of women with sexism, that’s a case where women’s opinions would matter more, for obvious reasons. But that’s a different issue. I’m not sure why your brought it up, because I’m not claiming to know something about women’s experiences, or does this article (and the article is by a woman anyway).

Sure. But my problem is that people feel the need to say MORE than that.

Okay, but that’s about your behavior. What about your personal beliefs? Do you believe racism is wrong?

Not even when he says the exact same thing that Martin Luther King says? How can that be?

Also, was MLK always right about everything? You haven’t, or feel you can’t, disagree with him about anything at all?

:confused: No I’m not. I think it’s a tremendously worthy discussion, whether folks who engage in this sort of silly snipery are allies or impediments to justice, and I’ll continue having the conversation. Nice try at silencing me, though! :slight_smile:

Why are you making it about him instead of the article in the OP? Consistency is your friend!

Do you really need to ask me that? Yes, obviously. And I will look askance at any white person who tries to start a conversation about anti-white racism, and be unlikely to believe that they are actually interested in stopping racism, and more likely to believe that they are more interested in putting down black people or advocating for white supremacy. Because, in my experience, the vast, vast majority of white people who have tried to start conversations about anti-white racism have been white supremacists, of one flavor or another.

Sure. The article is mostly a bunch of cloudy clickbait buttwaffle. It brings up a few instances of anti-male prejudice and disparagement that we all agree are bad, complains about a few other things that it’s misrepresenting as anti-male when they’re actually not, dumps in a heaping truckload of vague generalizations, and claims that the whole thing adds up to the sweeping assertion that “Feminists Treat Men Badly”.

If one of my freshman students turned in a paper that was so poorly argued, they’d be lucky to scrape by with a C.

Here are some of the floating non-attributions that the article author invokes to support her sweeping generalizations: “a lot of feminist rhetoric today”, “the fixation on men behaving badly”, “This tendency has reached a troubling new peak”, “the current cycle of misandry”, “Feminist commentary routinely puts the nastiest possible spin on male behavior and motives”, “casual low-level male-bashing is a constant white noise”, etc.

Does the author have any actual data or studies backing up these broad assertions? Nope, all she’s got is a few anecdotes about stuff that bothers her on the Internet, some of which she isn’t even representing accurately. (For example, her accusation that a pro-singlehood article by Laurie Penny is comparable to misogynist “Men Going Their Own Way” bitterness in “manosphere” conversations completely overlooks the fact that Penny makes the point that she’s not currently single, and is not dismissing the existence of good men or the rewards of good relationships: she’s just discussing ways in which a traditionally sexist culture places disproportionate relationship burdens on women.)

In short, as LHOD said: penny-ante bullshit.

Mind you, this is not in any way to argue that specific instances of misandry or male-bashing shouldn’t be called out. If the author had titled her article “Some Instances of Self-Identified Feminists Saying Things That Are Derogatory to Men”, and devoted the article to describing and explaining the problems with those specific instances, I doubt anybody here would be disagreeing with that.

But sprinkling a few such instances over a big bowl of unsupported qualifiers like “a lot”, “many”, “constant”, “generally”, “routinely”, and then trying to claim that it all implies that “Feminists Treat Men Badly”? Cloudy clickbait buttwaffle.

You’re the one who said you already told me what you think.

I think you’re the one who is an impediment to justice, but I’m only saying that because you seem to think you can talk about me the same way.

The examples given in the column aren’t examples of men being bashed for being men. They are examples of men being mocked for being stupid (or vulgar or whiney). There is no universal right not to be mocked. One should probably expect to be mocked if one is being stupid, vulgar, or whiney in public.

Look, if you don’t want to be mocked for saying something stupid, don’t say something stupid, or text a picture of your genitalia to a stranger, or interrupt an expert in the field to voice your shallow understanding of her field of expertise. The fact that people have not been pointing out your dumb behavior in the past doesn’t mean you haven’t been being dumb. It means you’ve been wrong all along and no one has pointed it out to you before. That still doesn’t make you the injured party.

Just to be clear, “you” is a generic “you” and these generalizations could apply to any human being and also some cats.

I’d say that you need to get out more and actually see this stuff happening, because it is happening. It’s real. She never claimed it was a “study” or a college paper. It’s an opinion column, just like your response.

It’s sad that you just dismiss problems instead of discussing them, but at least you’re back on topic.

But hey, can you at least agree that IF these things were happening, they’d be wrong and counterproductive? Or is that too much?