IIRC, a big if, Akido was begun by a ‘hard’ stylist who felt in his old age that he no longer had the strength, but still had the balance and enough speed to misdirect an opponents strength, so he formed a system that used those abilities.
Early 90s, yes. During the mid to late 90s, there was a significant shift in training and doctrine within the two primary fighting branches of the US military (Army and Marines) from the old hodge podge, traditional martial art based approach to what is essentially modern MMA - BJJ + muay thai + wrestling. As much as it pains me to admit this, the Marines have better systemized and incorporated continuing hand to hand combat training than the Army.
Aikido was developed from Daito-ryu aikijujutsu by Morihei Ueshiba. The movements, techniques and general concepts are very similar, even to an untrained, layman’s eyes. Ueshiba’s offshoot is no doubt even softer and more circular than aiki-jujutsu but in no way is it a radical departure.
Also, in terms of raw fighting ability, the first things a fighter or a martial artist loses are reaction time, speed, and timing. Strength is the very last thing to go.
Besides, aikido is the concept sports car of the martial arts world. Looks pretty and might go real fast under controlled conditions but most of the buttons don’t actually work and you’re screwed as soon as you hit a speed bump.
So what does that make Wushu?
My vote: Colt Fu
(Uzi-jutsu is solely for the trained military professional)
My vote: Hyoho niten glock ryu.
Just ancedotal. My father in WW2 army boot camp had to get past a judo instructor. Guy before him had put the judo guy down with a punch or something and judo guy ‘I’m not hurt, next.’ My father just steamrolled him and then judo guy took a break.
Anyhoo, when I was doing kenpo, my father did some of his boot camp tricks. One was an on the ground leg sweep technique that was pretty good I remember.
Modern Caveman = where did you do Kenpo? Mine was with Gary Garrett in the Sacto area in the late 70’s early 80’s. I think I did that same throat pinch move on a buddy in a bar a few years ago when things got a little out of hand. It’s a damn good move
Hmm. Not sure I’d agree with you on that. Admittedly it is easier for a novice to use as a counter to grabs than as a counter to punches (largely because the latter is a bit more reflex dependent) but I believe the moves to counter punches exist.
I think that on the street a decent user would normally be victorious against an unsuspecting opponent. Where its weakness seems to be to me is that a lot of the moves are wrist/fingerlock based, and someone who is expecting a wrist lock can set the wrist quite rigid - in its normal area of motion the muscles are quite strong, and it is only when they’re unexpectedly forced to extremes that the lock becomes very hard to get out of (unless you can flip your whole body around the locked joint).
I only studied it for a matter of months before leaving school (looong ago) though so there might be ways of getting around the element of surprise - but I’m not aware that aikido is a duelling sport in the way that karate and judo are, so I’m inclined to doubt it.
The flip side of this is that if you’ve been studying aikido for some time you’ll have thrown punches etc for your practice partner so you’ll presumably know how to do that!
One advantage it does have over forms such as karate is that it’s possible to disable someone without doing them any lasting damage, which can be useful if you’re not sure how the judge will react to that (may be more of an issue in the UK than the US; not sure).
*(NB: Below was posted by signal11 not neuromancer; its a coded reference and I deleted the wrong bit.)
*
I’d have gone for the trapeze artist, or possibly the ringmaster himself.
As the saying goes… how do you kill a circus? Go for the juggler.
I hold dan ranks in several martial arts, having had martial arts and/or fight sports shoved down my throat since I was four years old (I’m in my early 30s.) Among them, I have a 4th dan in a Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (the parent art of aikido) derived art, which I feel gives me a better perspective than most into aikido and aikido-like forms.
Aikido, as it is practiced by the overwhelming majority of practitioners worldwide, isn’t really a practical or combat effective form.
The litany of criticisms often leveled at aikido is unusually long so I’ll try to only specifically address the that issues you’ve brought up.
First, depending on the situation, defending against a grab attack can be much more difficult than dealing with strikes. If there’s anything the development of MMA has shown, it is easier to close range and clinch than it is to maintain optimum striking range on a closing opponent.
Furthermore, depending on the style and competency of the opponent, grabs and grips are usually a means to an end and not an end in itself. The initial grip is to establish and maintain range, control relative body positions and to limit the opponent’s options. Then comes throws, takedowns, elbows/knees, or punches, depending on whether you’re a judoka, wrestler, nak muay or a dirty boxer, respectively.
Grab defenses, as they were originally developed, are intended to be quick and fast. The original intent of most arm lock “throws” (as they are taught in aikido) were joint breaks, sans throws. This is for several reasons, some of which I mentioned in the previous paragraph.
In the Japanese martial art context, there are generally two classes of grab defenses, set up for the two primary forms of grabs. The first are limb grabs, usually left hand on right wrist, which is a pretty effective way to keep a samurai from drawing his sword for the simple reason that there are no left handed samurai. The second class are clothing grabs, which became popularized after judo effectively obsoleted most other extant jujutsu ryus of Japan. In the first case, the break better come fast and in small motion because the next thing that’s about to happen is a sword draw. In fact, there are classical sword schools that specialize in close in draw attacks. In the second case, goofing around with grip fighting with a person who specializes in establishing good, strong, dominant grips is an idiot’s game. The only thing he (the judoka) isn’t really good at or won’t be expecting is a standing arm break.
Unfortunately, none of this is particularly effective. First, aikido, more than most martial arts, depends on fine motor control for balance breaking and opponent control. Fine motor control is the first thing that you lose when your body does an adrenaline dump. Second, it is very difficult to break joints without first immobilizing the body. Most aikidoka have had the experience of their techniques not working as well on the beginners in the class? Why is that? Because they haven’t yet learned the “correct” response. Unfortunately for most aikidoka, most people don’t know the correct response and will do all sorts of things that are unexpected. Which leads to the next issue - the lack of practice against “live” opponents (Tomiki ryu aikido excepted). IOW, aikido didn’t get the Judo Memo of the late 19th and early 20th century, which is that it is better to practice “safe” moves against live, resisting opponents who are also trying to do the same to you rather than inherently dangerous moves against a static opponent, never to completion. With very few exceptions, judo (or as it was known at the time, Kano Jujutsu) quickly dominated every other jujutsu ryu in Japan based on these principles.
Lastly, your assertion that it takes more timing to counter a punch than a grab is also untrue. Let’s say a person comes charging into me throwing wide hooks and/or haymakers. One of the simplest ways to defend this is to tuck your chin and high elbow cover on both sides. Add a simple side to side waggle and very little with knockout/knockdown power will get through.
The primary weakness of standing joint locks is not someone going rigid on you. In fact, this is easier to deal with because it effectively limits the options of the person you are about to perform your technique upon. The biggest weakness is the lack of control over the direction of movement of your opponent. This is usually well understood by most intermediate to advanced aikidoka, who end up practicing force direction more than anything else. Unfortunately, this practice is usually just as plagued by some of aikido’s fundamental weaknesses.
Tomiki aikido has a competition format, based on a knife wielding attacker and defender. Attacks are limited to linear thrusts and the attacker and defender are established before the initiation of combat.
Defending punches from people who aren’t particularly good at throwing punches doesn’t make you good at defending punches. In fact, I think it does people a disservice by inflating their confidence past their actual capabilities.
This is an argument for judo/Brazilian jujutsu or modern submission grappling. The next step in a pain compliance lock with a non cooperating opponent is to break the joint. In this context, better to pin, establish control and then work a choke. This is actually an issue in martial arts competitions that allow submissions. At the highest levels, many elite competitors will not tap to a joint lock, the result of which is generally a broken joint or limb. This is especially common among Japanese competitors. OTOH, the result of a person who doesn’t give up to a choke is the guy goes to sleep, with little to no permanent damage. Aikido is not known for it’s effective choke subduals.
That said, aikido can be effective, depending on the background of the practitioner. The general consensus is that aikido is great if you’re already a good grappler (judo/BJJ/etc). Some of the best practical aikido dojos in the world are Japanese police dojos. Japanese police officers are famous for being able to make aikido control locks work. But then again, Japanese police aikido dojos are ancillary to Japanese police judo dojos.
Anyway, aikido is generally regarded as an art with what many would call in modern parlance “low percentage techniques.” The margin of error for effective employment is just too small. Furthermore, very few practice with enough resistance from their opponents to deal with what happens when things go according to plan. Which they inevitably will.
Thus my analogy of aikido being an really pretty concept car that doesn’t actually do much.
In my experience, it works pretty well to be 6’6" and 300 pounds. No one has bothered me yet anyway. Works for me. You should try.
Got a buddy who was always confident as hell, but he had some neural disease that made him look like he was drunk when he walked. Guy was a mugger magnet. Wouldn’t let anyone walk him back to his hotel when we were in San Jose, Costa Rica, which was often. He was always sure he would be fine, then he would get rolled and beat up. Got to where I would surreptitiously follow him, to keep him out of trouble. Couple of times I “luckily” happened to be around when the toughs guys wanting to beat up a gringo found him, and they always lit out like they were on fire.
I’ve never had any training in fighting, and I think in a real fight I’d probably be pretty worthless, even back then when in excellent shape.
Heh, reminds me of a place near where I used to live taht was run by a dojo who, I assume, did not speak English as a first language.
The sign advertising his establishment read something like: “Learn to fend off attackers using marital arts”. 
As interesting as all this talk about different martial arts is (and I’m really not being sarcastic in saying that), I am nonetheless reminded of an ex-Army personal-defense instructor who taught a class I took for a P.E. requirement in college. He was a bit dismissive of martial arts, because unless you practise them enough that they become second nature, you’re going to forget them in the heat of the moment. What he taught us was situational awareness: staying focussed on where you are and who’s around you. Sort of like defensive driving. He also taught us to use whatever we needed to get away - a heel to the foot, a knee to the balls, a head-butt to the nose, and then run like hell. I remember him telling about a student of his who woke up to find a strange man on top of her in her bed. She reached down to the floor, grabbed a big ol’ telephone, and beaned the guy in the side of the head. Then ran like hell.
I always thought that his “techniques” sounded more practical and easily applied than complicated (but very cool-looking) Asian martial arts. In fact, I once avoided a fight in high school by pretending to be deaf. The two punks were a bit confused, and eventually left. Not as cool as kicking bad-guy ass, I’ll admit, but then I’m not Jet Li.
I used to take long walks, regardless where I was. I asked my wife why it was that, in all of these dark places, I had never been mugged.
“Look at you. You are a big guy in overalls.”
“So what? They don’t slide off my ass and give me a place to put my radio.”
“You look like Lenny from ‘Of Mice and Men,’ without the rabbits. Nobody is going to fuck with you.”
“But I’m a fat guy with asthma. I wouldn’t stand a chance.”
“They don’t know that.”
The other way to fend off attacks without lifting a finger is (I can’t believe I’ve used this term here in only a few hours) situation awareness. Know what’s going on around you and the bad guys will find you less interesting and will pick on easier prey. I assume it works but don’t know, since nobody has ever fucked with me.
What happens when the mugger has a black belt?
To their credit, martial art instructors stress that it’s for defense. But, there’s a lot of guys taking lessons that want to kick ass. Someone needing $$$ for their next drug fix will do just about anything. They may have learned martial arts when they were younger and not using.
You have a valid point – if you look like you’d be more trouble than you were worth the casual criminal element tends to leave you alone.
In my years in NYC I was mugged twice – both times when I was ill and was getting my doctor’s visit/prescriptions/whatever together. I was weak and ill-appearing and was easy prey, especially because I was so sick I was not as aware as I should have been for being in the street and interacting with people.
When at full strength and not physically ailing I wasn’t a good target. I was also paying better attention to my surroundings and was more alert to what was going on around me, people and things.
Meh. I would take anything that an “ex-Army personal-defense instructor” said with a grain of salt. For one, until recently, US Army Combatives (hand to hand) were very much underdeveloped and all over the board. There was never a standardized format, despite the existence of an FM everyone was supposed to base their training on. Training at the local unit level was conducted by whoever happened to be around and whatever anyone learned in any given/time place was different from almost everyone else. Not to mention that these techniques/training methodologies have been established as being pretty worthless. Additionally, spending much time on hand to hand is generally not worth the time, except as a confidence builder.
And as I mentioned in a previous post, modern US military hand to hand combat training at all levels is now based on MMA.
Anyway, I also have more than a passing familiarity with the way Army did things, having grown up as a military brat of a career soldier who was also a pretty serious martial artists and having spent several years as a infantry officer myself.
Thanks for the post signal11 - most enlightening, but I think we might be talking at cross purposes a bit. I think you’re comparing its effectiveness against another martial art, and I’d agree that it leaves a lot to be desired in these situations. I was thinking more along the lines of using it against untrained muggers, where I would have thought you (well, an aikidoka, but especially you!) would be able to apply a crippling lock in response to a grab before the mugger knew what was happening.
That said I never used it in self defence so if you say that an unsuspecting assailant has a tendency not to do what you want him to do I’ll happily bow to your experience on that one (my experience of using judo in self defence (other than the fact that most clothing isn’t as suited as a gi is to lugging people around with), has been that most people haven’t got a clue what’s happening until they’re on the ground and that good ol’ gravity tends to predict the route they take to get there, but I guess the quarters are closer so maybe control is easier?)
Granted that counter to a punch sounds like it would be (temporarily) effective; I was intending the term as I used to use it in judo; a combined defensive and offensive move. Just as a matter of interest does aikido have counters (in that sense) to punching?
Which goes back to what I was saying about looking confident. Bad guys profile for victims. If they think they will get resistance from someone, they’ll move on to an easier target.