Fight with a friend/co-worker... should I let this go? (longish)

In My Humble Opinion
81

[QUOTE=nevermore]
…I also said that I’m sorry for saying shut up and fuck you, but it’s a well-known fault of mine that I’m very defensive when someone yells at me for hurting them without considering that I didn’t mean to. I said I felt like I was being attacked when all I was trying to do was be friendly, and that’s really all it was…
[/QUOTE]

So you get yelled at often? It sounds as though you have problems with friendship and with relating to co-workers.

Yes, I’m considerably older than you. Which means I’ve learned enough restraint in the workplace not to yell “Will you both shut the fuck up so we can get some work done?” I’ve learned that a well-timed comment to someone in authority is more effective.

If you want to be “friends”–save the extreme informality for Happy Hour.

82

[QUOTE=FourPaws]
Absolutely, as long as they agree with your point of view.
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I consider that a slanderous remark, (accusing me of small-mindedness,) and request that you either retract it or support it with factual data. Put up or shut up.

83

nevermore, I’m very glad to read that you’ve learned something from this incident and the feedback you’ve received here. Good on you for stepping up and acknowledging a mistake and apologizing for it.

But I still think you aren’t being completely honest with yourself about the entire situation and your role in it, which means you run the risk of repeating the same mistake, even if unintentionally.

One of these things is not like the other. . .
[QUOTE=nevermore]

. . .I noticed quickly that she’s extremely defensive-- if you have to correct her about anything, even if you’re training her, you have to phrase it VERY delicately and she still might take it as a personal attack. We’ve had several spats about this very thing. . .
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[QUOTE=nevermore]

Dude, again, this one incident is not indicative of our entire relationship dynamic. I fucked up once. You’ve never hurt a friend’s feelings by accident and had to apologize? There was never a time when you didn’t know something about a friend and unintentionally hit a sore spot? . . .

The fact that this happened once doesn’t mean I have no idea how to relate to this person. . .
[/QUOTE]
This was not an isolated incident, as clearly stated in your OP. You did know this girl was highly sensitive because you’ve had several previous “spats” with her about it. Yet you persisted in behavior that you had to know was exactly the kind of thing one might easily “take as a personal attack,” because that’s exactly what it was. It doesn’t get more personal than someone’s own name.

The image I get from you is that you are a friendly young woman who’s trying to fit in with her colleagues, in an environment that is probably somewhat new waters for you, at your age and experience. You really don’t mean any harm, but you also aren’t exactly sensitive about what behaviors can cause it, and what’s appropriate and what crosses the line.

The fact that you’re aware that “[your] older coworkers would gasp at some of the stuff [you] say to each other at work in fun, and thus [you] don’t joke around with them in that way”, should be a glaring, big, red sign to you that that particular type of joking around just isn’t appropriate there. I’d like to recommend that you go to one of them that you like and admire, and ask them if they’d be willing to mentor you. You have a golden opportunity here to gain so much knowledge and insight that you’ll be able to carry with you throughout your entire career – take advantage of it!

You seem like a very bright young woman. Gravitate towards the “smart kids,” not the “cool kids,” and you’ll go far. Good luck!

84

[QUOTE=FourPaws]
Because I said so.

I mean really, do you expect my response to somehow change your perception of the issue?

It all depends on the job, and the individuals, and those around them. You don’t think that their are different levels of “professionalism” depending on the job involved? This isn’t a federal crime to break the “professionalism” rule, now is it?

I used to work for a financial company where the President would routinely knock on the window of his office when I was walking by so I would look in and take notice of the fact he was giving me the finger, and vice versa. No, it’s not professional, but really, who cares?

I often give customers snarky responses to their questions (again, in a financial industry). Is it professional? By your definition, no. But the cusomers love it, and remember me, and we develop a rapport.

None of this is so crucial that it’s worth getting as worked up as y’all are. She misread her friend. Her friend got pissed. She got pissed. She apologized. It’s over. Move along.
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Brilliant!

85

Jodi, seriously… are you just going to ignore the fact that I’ve not only thanked people for, but actually taken the advice of many people I initially disagreed with? In what way does this demonstrate to you that I’ve asked for but did not actually desire honest opinions? Some of your points are valid, but I was pointing out that some of them are based on assumptions that I disagree with. Please stop taking it so personally and putting words in my mouth while you’re at it.

Bridget Burke, heh, it seems that you kind of took that out of context a bit. The fact that I’ve experienced misinterpretation of my intentions before, or have been yelled at before, says nothing about the frequency with which it’s happened OR the direction the blame should be going. That’s like me saying “I’m known to scream bloody murder at haunted houses” and you saying “so you go to haunted houses often.” Not trying to be rude, just pointing out the non sequitur.

To those who point out that I should have known better based on the previous spats, well, maybe I should have. The fact is, based on the way we relate, I did not think a mild nickname (which is easily one of the LEAST offensive “insults” I’ve thrown at her) would set her off. Up to now, the ONLY thing I’ve ever seen her be defensive about is being corrected about things at work, and not only by me, but her other co-workers as well. The reason we’ve had spats about it is that I was the only one willing to point it out to her, because I didn’t want her getting in trouble with our boss, which she recently did for this very attitude.

Still, some of you will argue that I shouldn’t even jokingly tease a co-worker who’s shown this kind of behavior. To me, that effectively means “Don’t be friends with her.” If I can’t rib someone a little bit in good nature, I’m keeping them at arm’s length. Some of you will argue that as she’s a co-worker, I should do that anyway. And it may indeed be a wiser choice in the long run, but to me, it’s also antisocial and a good way to make myself lonely. Work is about the only place I meet people my age, so I don’t want to cut off my only way of making friends by being 100% professional 100% of the time with people who obviously don’t want that kind of relationship with me.

This is not to say that I don’t appreciate these opinions; I’m not ignoring them completely. I’m just trying to be the happy medium between straight-faced church lady and getting myself in trouble.

86

[QUOTE=nevermore]

Still, some of you will argue that I shouldn’t even jokingly tease a co-worker who’s shown this kind of behavior. To me, that effectively means “Don’t be friends with her.” If I can’t rib someone a little bit in good nature, I’m keeping them at arm’s length. Some of you will argue that as she’s a co-worker, I should do that anyway. And it may indeed be a wiser choice in the long run, but to me, it’s also antisocial and a good way to make myself lonely. Work is about the only place I meet people my age, so I don’t want to cut off my only way of making friends by being 100% professional 100% of the time with people who obviously don’t want that kind of relationship with me.
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Three of my very closest friends in the world are women I met and became friends with through work, each through a different job. I haven’t worked with any of them for years, yet we have maintained very close and meaningful friendships. I would be the last person in the world to tell you not to attempt to be friends with women you meet through work.

Now that you know where I’m coming from, let me also tell you that you will likely not retain any “friends” you make through work, if part of being your “friend” means they have to put up with your teasing, ribbing and name-calling. It may seem like fun in the moment, but these are not qualities on which to build great and long-lasting bonds.

It is entirely possible to be friendly and fun to be around without being unprofessional and insensitive. You don’t have to be the office fuddy-duddy to be respectful and kind. Do some self-reflecting and see if you can figure out a way to joke around and be fun-loving without being rude and insulting. I bet you can do it.

87

[QUOTE=Shayna]
Now that you know where I’m coming from, let me also tell you that you will likely not retain any “friends” you make through work, if part of being your “friend” means they have to put up with your teasing, ribbing and name-calling. It may seem like fun in the moment, but these are not qualities on which to build great and long-lasting bonds.

It is entirely possible to be friendly and fun to be around without being unprofessional and insensitive. You don’t have to be the office fuddy-duddy to be respectful and kind. Do some self-reflecting and see if you can figure out a way to joke around and be fun-loving without being rude and insulting. I bet you can do it.
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I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this… for me it emphasizes the confidence each of us have in our friendship that we can afford to say otherwise insulting things to each other and laugh about them. It solidifies the bond that we have, and not just for my new friend, but all of the friends I’ve kept for the last 10 years. Obviously our friendships don’t consist solely of calling each other names; we talk about our relationships, our families, we provide support for each other, we share opinions on issues mundane and not-so-mundane, we grieve at each others’ losses and take joy in each others’ successes. Giving each other shit is just one of those small things that you don’t really think about, in the context of the whole, but I think it can and does bring people closer. I’ve never had it backfire this way before, and I honestly think I just stepped on a landmine, a childhood trauma that I didn’t know existed. I think it’s a fluke, and I don’t think she considers me rude or insulting for it, nor do I think she feels she’s having to “put up with” my insults; I think she’d be insulted if I suddenly refused to joke around with her in this way. For example, she quite commonly will be in the middle of something and turn, look at me inquisitively, and ask “nevermore, why are you such a hooker?”, which sends us both into giggles. If I stopped finding that funny, or stopped responding with my own indelicacies, she’d probably ask me what was wrong with me.

I have a good sense of social intuition, I am generally quite good at knowing how to conduct myself with whom, which is why I was utterly dumbfounded at her response to me yesterday. I think I could’ve prevented the entire situation by paying mind to the fact that the nickname bothered her as a kid, and just not going there at all… I really think that was my biggest mistake. That’s where I was insensitive. I just don’t think the answer is to be someone I’m not with a person who likes me for who I am. I hope that makes sense.

88

[QUOTE=nevermore]
Jodi, seriously… are you just going to ignore the fact that I’ve not only thanked people for, but actually taken the advice of many people I initially disagreed with?
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nevermore, seriously . . . are you just going to ignore the fact that I’ve said repeatedly “” I have no grounds to think based on your posting history that you are generally an immature person; but you were IMO acting immaturely in this instance. But nothing I said was intended as a comment on your general behavior or character"? I posted this twice, most recently in my last post but one, and rather than address the substance of my post, you responded with some pissy little snark to the single sentence you feel you can be offended by.

AFAICT, you are choosing to largely ignore – not entirely, but largely – the advice that has been given, which is of course your perogative if you think the advice is unwise. But your defensiveness and intentional condescension does sound to me as if you only really wanted advice you agreed with. You may say that is not in fact correct, by I am telling you that’s how you have come across, especially in your responses to me.

Now, I don’t actually give a shit if you and she call each other Big Fat Bitch on the hour every hour; I’m sure it will be a very bonding experience. But I’ll be damned if I’ll act like I think that’s a course of action that’s either farsighted or smart in a workplace or a professional context, because it isn’t.

89

[QUOTE=Jodi]
nevermore, seriously . . . are you just going to ignore the fact that I’ve said repeatedly “” I have no grounds to think based on your posting history that you are generally an immature person; but you were IMO acting immaturely in this instance. But nothing I said was intended as a comment on your general behavior or character"?
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That’s all well and good, but as it came directly after you called me a 9-year-old whose occupation was selling Girl Scout Cookies, you can imagine I didn’t receive that as well as I might have. Slightly inconsistent, that.

That’s exactly how I feel about the last three or four things you’ve posted. Ignoring everything except the one thing you can snipe at.

I have no idea how you can call what that I’ve said to you “pissy little snark” when I’ve tried and tried to explain why I disagree with you, why I felt certain of your remarks were condescending (and even if you didn’t intend them that way, that’s how they came across), and what my opinions are at length, in a more than civil manner. Then you continue to say “Well, you just don’t want to hear anything but what you agree with” again and again, which is rude and insulting, when that is quite obviously NOT the case.

I feel I have learned a lot from this thread, and I’m grateful for everyone’s participation in it, even those with whom I don’t agree. I just didn’t appreciate the tone of some of your responses and the conclusions you came to, I tried to point that out civilly, and you decided to be offended that I did so and claim that I don’t care to hear anything I don’t like. Because of this, I don’t feel I can continue this with you in a civil manner, so if you have anything else to say to me on the matter, I would appreciate it if you would take it to the Pit or elsewhere.

90

nevermore, here’s one thing you might want to consider. A lot of us will put up with things at work we won’t put up with anywhere else because we need the job and we might even like other aspects of it. I got called enough names as a kid to last a lifetime, so I don’t care to tolerate it as an adult. If you’d tried insulting me, even as a joke, I would have put up with it because I had to work with you, but sooner or later, I would have called you on your behaviour and politely asked you to stop. “SMellissa” may have been something your coworker figured she had to put up with because you didn’t think it was insulting and she had to put up with it until the day when it became one thing too many. It doesn’t sound like you’re willing to change your behaviour; indeed, you seem to consider it perfectly normal. If that’s the case, why should she think saying anything to you would make a difference?

91

[QUOTE=Siege]
It doesn’t sound like you’re willing to change your behaviour; indeed, you seem to consider it perfectly normal. If that’s the case, why should she think saying anything to you would make a difference?
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Please see post #87 in which I explain that she and I regularly insult each other playfully, instigated by her as often as me. If she were feeling persecuted by my behavior, I seriously doubt she’d participate herself, or continue pursuing a friendship with me.

I am willing to change my behavior-- I am going to try to pay attention when people tell me a nickname bothers them and not use it, or just not use nicknames at all, and I’m also working on not snapping back at people who snap at me, especially at work. I don’t understand what further modification is needed.

92

[QUOTE=Jodi]

Now, I don’t actually give a shit if you and she call each other Big Fat Bitch on the hour every hour …
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Is that just during working hours, or do they have to exchange 15 or so “BFBs” each morning to make up for the time since COB the previous day?

93

[QUOTE=nevermore]
That’s all well and good, but as it came directly after you called me a 9-year-old whose occupation was selling Girl Scout Cookies, you can imagine I didn’t receive that as well as I might have. Slightly inconsistent, that.
[/quote]

Oh, please. You called your coworker “Smell-issa” and told her to fuck off! Then you got mad at her about it and fulminated that you probably wouldn’t get the apology you deserved. And you contemplated ending the friendship over it and even if you did remain friends you would have “irrevocably lost respect for her.” That’s YOUR OP. That what YOU said. Jesus Christ on a Pogo stick, your were six kinds of immature – and my reference to Girls Scouts was meant to illustrate that. If that pissed you off, too fricking bad. Again, next time start a thread that makes it clearer you only want opinions that you actually like.

And if you want to move this discussion to the Pit, I’d be happy to follow you over but I open Pit thread when I decide to. If you feel you can’t speak to me civilly in the context of this thread, then stop talking to me, m’kay?

94

[QUOTE=nevermore]
Please see post #87 in which I explain that she and I regularly insult each other playfully, instigated by her as often as me. If she were feeling persecuted by my behavior, I seriously doubt she’d participate herself, or continue pursuing a friendship with me.

I am willing to change my behavior-- I am going to try to pay attention when people tell me a nickname bothers them and not use it, or just not use nicknames at all, and I’m also working on not snapping back at people who snap at me, especially at work. I don’t understand what further modification is needed.
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People are weird. You may seriously doubt she’d participate herself if she cared, but that may be exactly what she is doing in an attempt to fit in. Or maybe she is having a great time right now, but there is some invisible line where she’ll snap and it will all blow out of proportion (oh, she did snap once already). Or maybe tomorrow she reads a book on self esteem and looses her sense of humor about such things and suddenly sees what she’s been participating in as abusive - but lacks the self awareness to allow herself to see her own participation, so blames you. Maybe someday you and she are both up for the same promotion, and she decides to use a little leverage to kick you out of the picture by lodging a complaint about behavior that has never bothered her before. Read Din’s story - ten years of work friendship, active participation in profane behavior by both parties, and one day - bam! He’s being reprimanded.

Not to mention she isn’t the only person in this story who could lodge a complaint - unless this is a two person office. ‘Susan’ who sits nearby may not appreciate the banter and could turn both you over to management for unprofessional behavior. ESPECIALLY if Susan has a stick up her butt about profanity in the office and you are comfortable using it. No one there now like that? - you never know what the next new hire will bring to a culture, and habits are hard to break.

95

[QUOTE=Jodi]
Oh, please. You called your coworker “Smell-issa” and told her to fuck off! Then you got mad at her about it and fulminated that you probably wouldn’t get the apology you deserved. And you contemplated ending the friendship over it and even if you did remain friends you would have “irrevocably lost respect for her.” That’s YOUR OP. That what YOU said. Jesus Christ on a Pogo stick, your were six kinds of immature – and my reference to Girls Scouts was meant to illustrate that. If that pissed you off, too fricking bad. Again, next time start a thread that makes it clearer you only want opinions that you actually like.

And if you want to move this discussion to the Pit, I’d be happy to follow you over but I open Pit thread when I decide to. If you feel you can’t speak to me civilly in the context of this thread, then stop talking to me, m’kay?
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You could stop responding; that might end it, too.

The point has been made, the crisis diverted, both original parties are civil(ish) and know their boundraries and have learned from the situation. Pretty much time to close the thread. We’re not gaining any new (positive) insights at this point. It’s down to squabbling over inconsequentials.

Of course, now I’m the enabler for responding. sigh
Pot, kettle calling…

96

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
Is that just during working hours, or do they have to exchange 15 or so “BFBs” each morning to make up for the time since COB the previous day?
[/QUOTE]

All pastdue BFBs must be made up at the earliest opportune time. And they must be set to music, like this. NSFW!

97

[QUOTE=nevermore]
…Bridget Burke, heh, it seems that you kind of took that out of context a bit. The fact that I’ve experienced misinterpretation of my intentions before, or have been yelled at before, says nothing about the frequency with which it’s happened OR the direction the blame should be going. That’s like me saying “I’m known to scream bloody murder at haunted houses” and you saying “so you go to haunted houses often.” Not trying to be rude, just pointing out the non sequitur…

Still, some of you will argue that I shouldn’t even jokingly tease a co-worker who’s shown this kind of behavior. To me, that effectively means “Don’t be friends with her.” If I can’t rib someone a little bit in good nature, I’m keeping them at arm’s length. Some of you will argue that as she’s a co-worker, I should do that anyway. And it may indeed be a wiser choice in the long run, but to me, it’s also antisocial and a good way to make myself lonely. Work is about the only place I meet people my age, so I don’t want to cut off my only way of making friends by being 100% professional 100% of the time with people who obviously don’t want that kind of relationship with me…
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If your fault is “well-known”–perhaps you need to make your intentions less easy to misinterpret. (I don’t think non sequitur means what you think it means.)

Do you ever see your co-worker outside the office? If not, she’s not a friend; she’s a co-worker with which you have a somewhat friendly relationship.

You might be happier if you managed to have a life outside the office. I’ve had some fairly serious jobs in my life. And I’ve had some serious fun–but usually not at work. Not that I’ve worked in hostile environments with unfriendly co-workers. But I’ve found it better to concentrate on work while working. Then leave work & kick off my shoes.

98

I gvie up, what is the meaner version of Smellisa?

99

[QUOTE=FourPaws]
Get her a card? Oh, come on. Why not bake her a frickin cake and feed it to her while you’re at it?
[/QUOTE]

If I was the co-worker, I’d totally forgive you if you did this.

100

[QUOTE=saoirse]
If I was the co-worker, I’d totally forgive you if you did this.
[/QUOTE]

Ok, But you’d have to be cute *and *female for me to feed you cake.