Fighter jets flying out of commercial civilian airports.

Darwin is another dual use airport. There’s not normally a lot of military activity but a few times per year they have large military exercises. The ATC is run by the military all of the time (in fact it is a training airfield for the Air Force ATC, something that is sometimes painfully obvious as the trainee becomes overloaded and the whole thing turns to shit until you hear the calm tones of the supervisor come on and sort everything out.) There’s not normally much the military want to do that is particularly unusual. They’ll join the circuit via a buzz and break type procedure and they get priority, mainly because their fuel state tends to be more critical than the civilian jets. Aside from that it’s no big deal.

Heh, similar situation with PRANG, during the 90s when they still operated F16s out of Muñiz Air Base, at Luis Muñoz International Airport (SJU), it was fun to watch the Falcons come in high and hot over the City then right where most regular planes go short final, peel off and do a broad horizontal loop over the beach area to kill the last of the altitude/speed (or just to show off). Nowadays it’s C130s, plus a lot of C17s and KC’s from other states or the Reserve/Regulars, doing training or Haiti missions, or support for AF1 when the Prez heads South America way.

Aguadilla airport (BQE), the former Ramey AFB, is also shared with Borinquen Ciast Guard Air Station, but currently they do not have FW assets permanently based there.

A few tidbits:

UHF & VHF radios: Military cargo & tanker aircraft have generally had civilian-compatible VHF radios since the 60s in addition to the military-only UHF radios. Prior to the F-16, fighters were UHF only. The F-16, F-18, and later model F-15s all have VHF as well as UHF, but in many cases strongly prefer to use UHF wherever possible. Early F-15s, of which a few may still be flying, are UHF only. So yes, as noted above, it’s common to hear military planes being told to contact ATC on either a VHF or UHF freq. The controller neither knows nor really cares which radio the aircraft may be using.
Mixed types of air traffic. Even at busy joint-use bases, the total amount of military traffic is small compared to either the airlines or the lightplanes. e.g. When the USAF had tankers at O’Hare, the tanks would fly 5 flights a day, whereas the airlines would land or take off 5 times in 3 minutes. The small amount of traffic generated by typical peacetime Air National Guard or Air Force Reserve units is exactly *why *they were sited at civilian fields; so the military didn’t have to pay to build & maintain an expensive jet-capable airport that was hardly used.

Most military transport aircraft fit in with airline traffic just fine. Fighters are a different matter, but with some careful design of traffic patterns it’s not that hard to keep everybody separate & still share the same runway(s). When the weather is poor they fly just about like the big jets do and when the weather is nice they can use their much greater manueverability & performance to be elsewhere in the sky except for the last 3/4 mile to touchdown.

The much bigger ATC challenge is the many airports which have a lot of lightplane activity mixed in with airline or military heavys. If you have enough runways in the right arrangement you can segregate the slow movers well enough. If not it becomes an interesting game of Frogger for the controllers.
Military landing at purely civilian fields: When I was in that was strongly discouraged. As noted above we in the fighter business had (have) a requirement to do a certain amount of long-distance flying for proficiency. The heavy drivers got (get) all the long distance flying they needed in the course of their normal daily trash-hauling duties.

If possible we’d plan our flights to use military bases only. That way we had the right kind fuel & trained people to meet us at each stop. If something broke it was much easier to get it fixed at a base versus a civilian field. ANG/AFRES bases counted as military, so stopping in places like Des Moines or the others listed above was common.

One big exception was airshows. If a civil field was having an airshow, the military would often send several types over for a static display. What with the war and all, this seems less common nowadays. But it was always an opportunity for problems as it seems a lot of civil pilots fly into & out of airshows and lose their pilot judgment somewhere along the way.

It’s not uncommon in other countries, where airports may double as air force bases. I remember being a little surprised at seeing MiG-21s lined up next to the runway when arriving at Pula Airport in Croatia for a holiday a few years ago. Pula is an air force establishment as well as a commercial airport.

I believe that in terms of being able to use an airport, there is no FAA separation between civilian, military or commercial. Any N-numbered aircraft can essentially use any airport it wants to. And not just for emergencies. The only real restriction is runway length (i.e. if its too short).

Another restriction, of course, would be services available. Many airports may not have mechanics and parts for many military aircraft if work is required (the bigger planes will often just bring some mechanics and spare parts with them to do the work after they land at their destination. Harder to do that trick with an F-16).

As for Tuscon International, it’s kind of a funny airport. There are three terminals there: The Domestic Terminal, the International Terminal, and the Military Terminal. There is, IIRC, only one or two International flights a day, so that terminal does not get much use. The military terminal, one presumes, basically houses the Fighter Wing’s personnel and facilities for supporting the jets.

Basically, they built the place with a lot of expansion in mind, which has not really happened all that much that I’ve seen, but they presumably have much of the cost defrayed by hosting the Arizona Air National Guard there. Quite cool to see a line of F-16s on the tarmac the first time you land there.

As for air traffic control, it works like it does anywhere else. The Controller tells the pilot to do something, and the pilot shuts up and colors, barring any huge issues the controller has failed to notice, such as two planes being dangerously close for what ever reason. IIRC, formations of planes are treated as single aircraft as long as they stay together. Birds are treated as aircraft that are unable to communicate with the tower at all (in other words, they’ll do their own thing, and the tower and the pilots have to work around them).

Also, you won’t see military jets doing Top Gun maneuvers over the airport, most likely. They’ll take off, get onto one of their prescribed flight lanes, and fly to an area that is set aside for military traffic. There are sections of airspace that civil aviation is either encouraged to avoid, or outright banned from entering (depending on the particular section of airspace), so that the military folks can do their thing without anyone in the way.

There used to be local commuter flights out of Ellington; no more, according to my research. But civilian aviationbased there includes corporate jets & flight training.

When the Astronauts return to Houston from Florida, they land in Ellington. Astronauts who are also pilots have gotten their flight time there–dating back to those seven original hotshots.

This, apparently, is precisely the case at D. W. Hooks airport near Houston. It gets a lot of military traffic on cross-countries; mostly single and multi-engine trainers and helicopters but occasionally liaison/light cargo types and a few fast jets as well. The attraction is a decent coffee shop-style restaurant and a voucher for a free meal if you fuel up during your stopover.

Ahh, a friend of mine in the Civil Air Patrol says this sort of thing is commonly known as a “Hundred Dollar Burger”:smiley:

Wouldn’t there also be a security issue? If you landed a F15 at some commercial airport, what are you going to do with it? I’m assuming you can’t just leave it parked on the field while you go check in to a local Econo-Lodge.

Yeah, that was part of it. Although there’s not much that’s practically steal-able. The “security” at transient airplane parking areas is OK for corporate types, so it was deemed adequate enough, barely, for peacetime use back in my day. Nowadays attitudes may be different.

A 5’ cyclone fence to keep the honest folks out & somebody to call the cops if they notice something out of the ordinary works most of the time in most of the places. That’s no barrier to a deliberate concentrated attack by a commando squad, but how many of those are running around the US causing mischief on a daily basis?

I saw a visiting F-15 do a vertical departure from ABQ/Kirtland. I assume he was showing off for the Tacos * who’s F-16s can’t do that. Because the runways actually are on an active Air Force Base, they may be able to get away with more than a guard unit based elsewhere.

  • NM air guard uses the radio callsign “Taco” As in “Taco-7, flight of 3, inbound for landing”

Well, I should say, you normally won’t. From what I understand, when you request takeoff clearance, you also request such-and-such altitude such-and-such distance whatever direction from the airfield. If you say you want permission to take off and ascend to 20,000 ASL directly over the airfield, you might get permission, but you had better not drift too far away from that course they authorized., Rocket Man. :smiley:

What it comes down to, is if the controller gives you PERMISSION to do something, he’s presumably checked the area and made sure it was safe for you to do so. Whether or not he’ll GIVE you permission depends on a lot of factors though.

Land your Cessna at a military base without prior permission and you’ll get the chance to explain that in detail.

The best name ever for a dirt strip is Wyoming’s Greater Green River Intergalactic Spaceport (48U on the Salt Lake sectional :wink: )

I flew out of Townsville a few years ago and there were RAAF F/A-18s taking off from the airport along with regular civilian passenger and cargo aircraft as well.

I flew Heavy cargo and trainers in the AF so I have some different experience than LSL Guy, but what he said is true.

The people who have seen trainers at out-of-the-way places like David Wayne Hooks are also correct. In a military aircraft that doesn’t have weapons attached to it the only thing we cared about was if there was a military contract with a fuel provider at the airfield. Well… I flew T-1 trainers, and we could self-start from a battery. The T-38 guys needed a huffer and had to pay more attention to the notes on an airfield. If we had a contract for fuel and the runway was long enough, we were cleared to press. The guys that sold fuel were often happy to see us since we bought a lot more than the average Cessna, so they gave us incentives like a free lunch if we filled up. Word of things like that spreads quickly - go to DWH or Ellington Field on a Friday afternoon (when the trainers are all leaving for their weekend cross-countries) and the ramp will be clogged with military jets.

As for operating out of civilian airports - for the most part military jets get treated just the same as civilian ones. I’ve flown a C-141 into O’Hare, Miami, Frankfurt and countless other airports and all they cared about was “Reach xxx, maintain 170 until the marker, contact tower on xxx.x”

Warning- war story. Doing a Presidential mission during the '96 election (ie carrying Clinton’s limos and the Secret Service guys - Phoenix Banner for those who know!) I left Bradley Intl in CT (BDL) on my way to Andrews AFB in Washington DC. Not a very long flight, so even though we had the limos on board we were still pretty light. When we talked to tower I told my copilot to ask for an unrestricted climb to 10,000 feet. (Back in the day a C-141 had beaten an F-4 time to climb record to 10,000 feet). Tower was intrigued, talked to the approach guy sitting next to him, and approved it. We took off and climbed at max angle to 10,000 feet. It was probably much more impressive from inside the aircraft, but the tower guy at least said “Wow” before he handed us off.

I, for one, welcome our civilian-airport-flying military jet overlords.

**Kevbo **& Raguleader on near vertical departures:

The F-16 is about 99% as capable of vertical departures as the F-15 is. The canard about the F-15 having a greater than 1:1 thrust / weight ration & therefore being able to accelerate straight up is just that; a canard.

The reality: At sea level the early model F-15’s thrust/weight is ever so slightly greater than 1:1 when carrying no weapons & full internal fuel, while the early F-16’s t/w ratio is ever so slightly less than 1:1 under similar loadings. In either case, as soon as you add aerodynamic drag to the equation, neither aircraft can accelerate going straight up. And as soon as you add any meaningful altitude (which happens quickly going straight up-ish at 400+ knots), the T/W drops off to well less than 1:1.

The later models of both aircraft have gotten both heavier & more powerful, but in general weight has grown faster than thrust. And finally, a fighter without weapons & only a partial fuel load is very pretty, but not real useful.
Having said all that, you can still make one hell of an impressive departure in either jet. Get airborne in full blower, suck up the gear & stay level at 20-30 feet above the runway to the other end. For a typical fighter runway & a decently cool day you’ll be doing 400-450 knots (460-520 mph) by the far end of the runway. Then a smooth 3-4G pull to the vertical and away you go. 400 knots is roughly 40,000 feet per minute. So about 30 seconds later you’re passing through 20,000 feet slowing through about 250 knots. Roll to the desired departure heading & pull down to the horizon using 2-3G. You’ll level around 26,000 doing about 200 knots. Which is pretty slow for a fighter. Leave it in blower & you’ll be gaining > 10 knots/sec & will be back into decent airspeeds in another 5-10 seconds. Viola. The bad news is you’re only 2 miles from the end of the runway & down to at best 75% of full fuel. But it was fun and made a helluva noise!
As to ATC: These maneuvers are pretty common at any airport (civil or military) which hosts fighters on a regular basis. They’ll have a pre-planned departure procedure for that purpose. So while approval from ATC is required, it’s not like it entails some large investigation or dose of gumption on ATC’s part.
Aside: A common misconception about the interaction between pilots & ATC is that ATC is leading & airplanes are following. Not really. ATC is effectively required to say “yes” to any request they can reasonably accomodate. The only acceptable reason for ATC to ever say “no” is if saying “yes” would involve inconveniencing or hazarding another aircraft. They’re traffic coordinators, not traffic cops. As a practical matter, in congested airspace the only way to operate is to follow the herd. But even then the herd is gonna do what pilots need to do to get the job done. ATC’s job is to help comb the herd into an organized herd since we don’t have the tools to see the whole herd ourselves.
Oh yeah … The guy upthread who said he could land his Cessna at a military base any time he felt like it obviously has never had an M-16 stuffed in his ear. Don’t try that at home folks. Unless you’re on fire. And even then expect the M-16s to be right there next to the fire trucks.

It’s fairly common in continental Europe (though not England) for military and civilian traffic to share an airfield. Brussels is one I can think of.

With almost 14,000 feet of runway, he might have been doing a bit more than that. The F-16’s were obnoxiously loud. That guy was well beyond obnoxious.