Fighting Ignorance?

(Note: I wrote up this long post last night before everyone had started being all friendly and stuff, but then the board was down, so I couldn’t post it, and now it’s a bit out of date… I mean, c’mon guys, this is the Pit! If you want to cheerfully revel in the common bonds of humanity and intellectual brotherhood, can’t you find another forum? :slight_smile: )

I think that there’s another reason for some perceived unfairness of standards… although this can be a subtle and tricky issue.

When someone says something that’s potentially hateful, the level of alarm with which the mods, and the community as a whole, respond, is sometimes proportional to the likelihood that the hate speech on the SDMB might correspond to hateful and damaging actions in real life, and to the general levels of power and security of the attacked group as a whole.

There is some non-zero number of actual physical life-threatening crimes committed against gay people in the US every year due to their sexuality. If someone comes onto the board and says something along the lines of “I hate all those damn gay people! I think they should die!”, they’ll almost certainly be banned instantly, because it’s all too plausible that they might literally mean what they say. And even if that specific poster doesn’t mean it, there are people in the world who do, and that knowledge is always present in the minds of the moderator who reads that post.

On the other hand, suppose someone shows up and types “I hate all those damn Christians! I think they should die!”. That’s still (obviously) awfully hateful, and might easily result in banning. But to me, (I’m neither gay nor Christian), it seems far less frightening and disturbing.

If there are actual physical, life-threatening hate crimes committed against Christians, they certainly aren’t well publicized (no doubt due to the vast liberal media conspiracy). One nut raving on a message board about his hatred for gays might well be a part of the actual, real life, anti-gay movement. Except in the minds of a certain Alabama judge, there is no actual, real life anti-Christian movement… certainly not one that includes frequent life-threatening acts of violence.

This is actually an issue which has a lot of shades of grey, which applies not just to hate speech and death threats, but to various levels of teasing, mockery, etc. The fact of the matter is that Christians are a huge majority in the US as a whole, and occupy many of the positions of power. (The same could be said of white folks, for that matter). That means that mocking of, and hatred towards, whites and Christians, at a variety of levels of seriousness, doesn’t bring with it the same history, implications, and ominous overtones that precisely the same behavior or actions directed at gays, blacks, post-9/11-Muslim-Americans or other less powerful groups does.

It’s in some ways a double standard, I agree. And I don’t know how often it actually affects moderator behavior. But if it does, I don’t honestly think it’s in any way indicative of meaningful, disturbing, protest-worthy prejudice.
Two comments specifically for Libertarian:

(1) You say that you didn’t choose Christianity, rather, it chose you. I have no reason not to believe your sincerity. But I know of countless cases of people changing religions over the course of their lives, often out of something approaching conscious choice. On the other hand, I know of few, if any, cases of people changing sexuality over the course of their lives. Thus, I tend to view religion, but not sexuality, as something-that-can-be-chosen.

You might argue that you becoming Christian, after not earlier identifying as Christian, is precisely analogous to someone identifying as straight and then coming out as gay. And, again, I can’t meaningfully argue with your claim about yourself. But I see a problem with that analogy (assuming it’s one you might make), which I will attempt to illustrate with a hypothetical:

Suppose you had been abducted at birth by biologically-human people from another dimension or planet and had grown up in a world in which there was no such thing as Christianity (if you want to argue that your beliefs claim that no such society could exist, suppose that you were carried back in time and grew up in Ancient Greece). And suppose you were raised as a believer in one of the religions and belief systems of that world. Would you, at some point upon reaching adulthood, “come out” and realize “wow, this isn’t really me, I’m XXX”, where XXX is the concept of Christianity, which you believe in, and identify with, even if you aren’t able to give it a name?

Honestly, I have trouble believing that that would be the case. Whereas I have no trouble at all believing that a gay man who was raised from birth in a society full of straight people would still end up feeling sexual attraction to other men.
Actually, after having typed all of that up, I’ve come up with a different, more meaningful, way to say what I’m trying to say:

You say that you don’t choose to be a Christian, rather, you just are a Christian.There are other things that you don’t choose. In your case, you didn’t choose to be male. You just are one. You didn’t choose to be (whatever race you are). You just are.

So I compare that to what I know about myself. Like you, I am the gender and race (male and white, in my case), that I was born. I have no choice about that. But I am not a Christian. Rather, I am an agnostic-liberal-with-libertarian-beliefs-on-social-issues. And, in some ways, I didn’t choose to be that. Certainly, I never consciously sat down and said to myself “hmmmm… eenie, meenie, miney, moe, what belief system will I have”. And there’s also an extent to which I can’t change my beliefs. If someone offered me a billion dollars to believe in God, I couldn’t do it. (I would certainly be willing to lie about it for a billion dollars, but that’s neither here nor there.)

On the other hand, I’m in no way going to claim that my being agnostic is as certain, unchangeable, foreordained, predestined, and unchooseable as my being white. Heck, it’s certainly possible that I won’t be an agnostic a year from now, albeit unlikely. And who knows what I would believe if I’d had different parents, different experiences through life, a different society surrounding me, etc.

So, when I’m evaulating and attempting to understand what you say about yourself and your not-choosing-Christianity, bearing in mind that I can only interpret things in the context of who I am and what I know from my own perspective, I view your Christianity as far more analogous to my agnosticism than to my maleness.

Therefore, while I believe that you speak with absolute honesty and firmness of belief and intent, I don’t, honestly, believe that you are correct, at least not if you claim that your Christianity is, like race, or, to a debatably lesser extent, sexual orientation, a foreordained biological certainty.

(2) Hijacking briefly, in your thread “criticize me”, I wrote that I wished you would return to the lengthy and contentious discussion of multi-universe-logic and the ontological proof. You then indicated (I thought) that you were interested in doing so. Have you done so? Did I miss one or more posts or threads?

When I first came to this board I was agnostic. I grew up Roman Catholic but then fell away after hearing so much intolerance expressed for dear friends of mine. Through Christian dopers such as Polycarp I am taking an interest in religion again. I am reading books about it and desire to be witnessed to. (Only by intelligent Christians though.)

I use the term ‘fundies’ to refer to people who call themselves Christian and IMHO, hijack the scripture of my God and turn it into something evil, twisted, and vile. While faggot refers to gays in general, IMHO, ‘fundie’ refers to ‘Christians’ (i don’t consider them Christian) refers to people filled with hate and intolerance. Therefore, I see nothing contradictory about allowing people to use the term efundief but not the term faggot.

If people told me they were offened by the term ‘Fundie,’ then I would stop using it. But there must be some term to refer to ‘Christians’ of that variety.

Max

With respect to (1) :

I can’t unring the bell. I’ve seen Him in His glory. There is no turning back, no changing, no denying. Were I to deny Him, it would be exactly the sort of lie you mentioned. It would be like denying that I encountered you here in this thread. There’s no sense in doing that.

Some people believe because their parents do, or because of this or that as you say. I believe what I know. The me that could change my belief is dead. I can appreciate that this might be hard to grasp, but I’m not talking about blind faith here. Like Dr. Arroway in Contact, I’ve “had an experience”. I’ve examined every aspect of the experience as thoroughly as I know how, even including reading the neurological research of Dr. Ramachandran in an effort to determine whether my experiences are hallucinations.

Believe it or not, I am a skeptic by nature, just as all Melancholies are. But at the end of the day, after all is said and done, I am forced by all that is reasonable to confess that He is real. In fact, He is all that is real. All else is fleeting, and falling headlong into irreversible entropy even as you read this.

With respect to (2):

I’m always interested in discussing the paradoxes of materialism and the validity of the ontological proof. Is there a particular aspect of interest to you? If so, open the discussion and link me to it.

Exactly.

Banning someone from the SDMB may be totally legal, but it’s still censorship, even if it’s a private forum where, “you HAVE no rights here”.

In reality, if an individual posts under a name which is later banned from usage, he can, of course, simply re-register under a different name and continue posting his offensive posts. Thus, “banning” really isn’t banning, at all. And then if you ban that IP, there are always random anonymizers. (All this stuff is Message Board 101.)

Banning members too often (and everyone would have a different definition of “too often”, I realize) draws increased scrutiny to two things I can think of off the top of my head: 1. weaknesses/lack of moderation methods which can be designed to address ongoing issues with troublesome members, 2. the hypersensitivity of some members to a message board which was created to “fight ignorance” in that some long-time members openly call for banning other members who say things to which they object.

Max, can you please explain in what manner the community as a whole responds to someone as you describe?

Because it doesn’t seem as though it’s fair to refer to a community like the SDMB as a “whole” when it has 30,000 members who can join just by registering. Say, for example, 10 people ask that I be banned, can I blame the “community as a whole”? What is the magic number? 20? 100? 30,000?

It would have to be 30,000/whatever the membership number is. Otherwise, suggesting that the community as a whole responds uniformly to someone who posts a potentially hateful post is false.

I’m only nitpicking with you because I was just about to do the same thing in my prior post.

Lib, also remember that “fundy” is not exclusive to Christianity, but can also be used to describe say, Muslim fundies, like Al Qaeda.

<< Banning someone from the SDMB may be totally legal, but it’s still censorship, even if it’s a private forum where, “you HAVE no rights here”. >>

Oh, please. This is way past being pathetic.

If you would prefer an unmoderated Message Board, there are plenty on the web, please, do us a favor and go there. Why stay here and whine?

Most bannings involve advertisers, pimps (I guess that’s the technical term for people who just post to provide porn links), and the like. And a few jerks who use socks (or people who tro “return” by re-registering as nisobar mentions.)

This is a Message Board, paid for by the CHICAGO READER, and the READER has established rules for behaviour. Some of those rules – such as the strict enforcement of copyright rules, prohibition of promoting illegal activities, etc. are imposed for the obvious protection of the READER.

You can call it censorship if you like. Get all hot and aggravated and take a stand for your convictions! Leave in a huff (or a minute and a huff) to protest, and we shan’t let the door hit you on the way out.

When you go to eat at a restaurant, and you stand up on the table and start to make a political rant, don’t be surprised if management kicks you out. You’re disturbing other patrons. That’s censorship!

When you go to the movies, and decide to start talking loudly about your religion in the middle of the film, don’t be surprised if the management kicks you out. That’s censorship, too!

Freedom of expression is NOT without limits, and only a dolt would think so or argue so.

You follow the rules if you want to stay. If you don’t want to follow those rules, get thee to a nunnery.

I kinda thought nunnerys were sort of strict.

Actually, if I recall my Shakespeare, a nunnery could also be a brothel. Given what C K Dexterhaven said about most bannings, I suppose that could be rather appropriate.

CJ

I thought we’d already established that you couldn’t recall your Shakespeare. :slight_smile:

The OED lists that usage as from the 17th century, which is after poor Billy’s time.

Perhaps to some in here it could be said, “Get thee to a funnery!”

Err… Desmostylus, you’re not saying Shakespeare never used it, right?

From Hamlet, Act III, scene I:

CK Dexter: No, it really isn’t “way past pathetic”; it’s a valid argument. From Merriam Webster’s:

Something objectionable could be, as you suggest, porn links, advertisements, etc. That said, the READER has established rules, and if you violate those rules, you are officially censored. I call it censorship because, well, it’s censorship. It’s an ugly word, but call a spade a spade.

And why would I leave the SDMB? :confused: I’m not following you there with your logic. You mean like, “The SDMB - Love It or Leave It!” Hey, that could be it’s new raison d’etre! Who cares about ignorance, anyway, except the ignorant… :smiley:

I obviously enjoy the SDMB, since I come back here frequently. Are there things about the Board which leave room for improvement? Yes, indeed. Perhaps I should stop criticizing where I see problems? Is that what you mean by “whining”? Hmmm. Are you trying to say something like, you can criticize, but you only get 3 chances with each criticism. If you continue to make responses to posts which respond to yours, you are then whining.

So then why:

This description should be edited to say, “No whining allowed.” :slight_smile:

While I’m not any more perfect than anyone else, if a SDMB moderator feels free to subtly veer into personal attacks like “dolt”, even in the BBQ Pit, rather than simply address the issue being discussed, I’m not sure what, if anything, that says about SDMB professionalism. YMMV.

Have good one, CK! :slight_smile:

Of course not. I’m resisting the implication that the Shakespearean quote could be read as a double entendre meaning brothel, rather than a literal nunnery.

In any case, CJ, my intention wasn’t to take you to task over this. Everyone has baggage of half-remembered stuff, myself included. The :slight_smile: expressed my true intention.

Resistence is futile!

There are myriad analyses online that interpret the phrase both ways; I’m not saying the interpretations are right, but there you go.