I don’t. Everything I said is a patchwork cobbled together of things I imagined, logical fallacies and confirmation bias.
(cut for clarity)
So far as the law enforcement community is concerned, these points are a chicken-and-egg issue.
In my home state of Pennsylvania, drug and alcohol treatment can be a condition of probation/parole, but AA and NA can’t be the only options; that is, an offender can’t be violated back to prison if he chooses to attend another group or to seek counseling in lieu of AA or NA. Offenders are exposed to different programs while incarcerated and encouraged to stick with the ones they like best. If the offender is paroled to Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, or some of the larger cities, no problem; there are lots of different groups and programs to choose from. If the offender is in Bumfuck, PA, it’s a lot harder because other programs haven’t made it out that far. So this offender is de facto sentenced to AA/NA not because of any fault of the system, but because that’s the only game in town if the offender wants to stay out of jail. If there were other recovery groups, they’d be allowed. There just aren’t any.
My own experience with AA, which ended about four years ago, is that it’s a lot of No True Scotsman, a fair amount of love bombing, and watching out for predators (at least if you’re young or female).
Great. And?
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Agreed, with some qualifiers. The term “cultish” is a bit strong. The group isn’t like the Branch Davidians. You don’t have to give them your house. There is definitely some groupthink going on, but a more charitable description of that is that it is simply a group of people who have common beliefs and a common purpose. Further, the group takes pains to accommodate atheists. There is a whole chapter devoted to agnostics in the big book.
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Agreed, again with qualifiers. “Making it up as they go along” could be more charitably described as a group of people finding out more about their common affliction through continued discussion.
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Agreed.
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Agreed.
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Agreed.
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Agreed, but AA doesn’t pretend to be a scientific organization. It really doesn’t pretend to be a unified organization at all. It isn’t interested in scientific research or otherwise proving its efficacy. It simply says, “This is what worked for us. No reason it cannot work for you.”
It is not a group that says it can help you when you get in trouble because you drank beer and watched football when your wife wanted you to clean out the garage. It is a group that is there for you because you were determined to quit drinking, have tried many times before, swore it would be better this time, but you still woke up this morning on the front lawn with piss and vomit all over your pants and look over and see the car door open from where you drove home drunk. The group says, “We did this too, and this plan helped us. Give us a try.”
If it doesn’t work, then you are certainly no worse off than before because as has been said, AA is meant for someone at the end of his rope. Also, as others have said, how do you gauge “success” in any of these programs?
Oh, I am in agreement with your assessment and I was just letting you know that since I had asked you a specific question to respond too
Proceed with caution… unless you can verify with statistics that what you just said was accurate, you’ll probably be accused of imaging things, misremembering things, committing logical fallacies and suffering from confirmation bias. Most of your criticism will be from people who have never even been to a meeting.
Hi, I’m Mike and I’m an alcoholic. (Hi, Mike!) I see LOTS of good. It helped me through a rough patch and it’s there when my sobriety teeters. But I am the first to admit that it has flaws, and the Cult of Bill W pisses me off, and the first meetings I made a point of missing were centered on discussing Step 2 in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.
Yeeeeahhh, but they are still amateurs. They found a way that works for them, and they are evangelists, with all the good and bad that comes with evangelizing. There is no real science in the Big Book, just a lot of fire, brimstone, and woo. That works for a lot of people, and they are happier, their families are happier, and society is happier. I am happy for them and would not take that away from them.
Still, I find much of the hatred towards AA always shown in these threads (usually by the same players) is based on kneejerk reactions to religion and misconceptions of what AA is and should be. AA is religious at its heart (see Wilson’s strawman massacre in the link above), though it’s become more open to other religions, as long as you have one. :rolleyes: People complain that it takes its Single Solution philosophy to absurd lengths, but that is only a problem when it’s the only game in town.
Which it is, almost everywhere. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy? Got insurance? You’re fucked otherwise. I want to try a SMART Recovery meeting because it claims to be more science-based? Fine. There are two per week within twenty miles of my home, and I live in suburban Chicago, FFS. OTOH, my AA chapter has as many as five meetings per DAY, two miles from me, and I attended two or three of them when I started out. And other systems get as heavily into woo as AA.
AA is a solution for some, but not all, and reasonable people realize it. The people who piss me off are the ones who kick it repeatedly over things out of its control.
AA in a nutshell.
The SDMB has several members who have never been in such straits, yet they think they know all about alcoholism and how recovery should work, and take any opportunity to kick the AA strawman they have constructed.
Ah, ok, so you do know about the program. My problem is being an Atheist. When I hear someone one say… “Well one door closed and another door opened. I was out of a job for three months but thanks to my Higher Power I’m starting next month installing carpet’s with an old friend from high school”. I want to say “No, you did it, you looked for 3 months putting out resumes and phone calls and asking anyone that might be hiring for a job. It was you that did that.” That’s what I’m thinking but it would be counter productive to the meeting as a whole to actually say it. I’m just not comfortable in the 12 steps any longer and to tell the truth I miss it because I had such good friends there…
But how do you even know what this person’s “Higher Power” even is? Maybe this person is also an atheist and has chosen to embrace this concept in a more abstract, cognitive fashion? You know, taking a general concept and personalizing it for their individual needs?
Yeah, I was encouraged to keep mum about that very thing. I was told that saying that you had untapped power inside yourself, which was why you were there in the first place, was too complex for people who believed they had nothing more inside them. The irony is that one reason they thought it was because AA kept telling them it was true. And I didn’t even get into my atheism. (My pastor is cool with my atheism–I love the ELCA! It’s another case of using the group as my higher power, except with better stories, better food, and a spoonful of port to remind me of just how good that devil on my shoulder can taste.)
Ah, cool, well it’s been nice chatting with you 
Do you go to meetings?
As you know, I’m not one to judge. 
Nor one to speak for others. :rolleyes: But my friends generally told us who their higher power was, and it wasn’t always Jebus. Just usually. But there were some like you describe, and most of the Christians tolerated them. A couple times someone needed punching, but if our Bikers in Recovery meetings could (usually) go off without a hitch, I took my strength from their success.
Note that I am not using “took my strength” as anything but a metaphor. I saw that they could succeed and tried to model my behavior on theirs. No woo involved. I even got used to hugging. Bikers are big on hugs.
“Bikers are big on hugs.”
Bawahahaha and the big scary guys are the best at hugging. 
No but why should that preclude me from discussing the basic structures upon which those meetings are based?
Believing in a “higher power” is pretty much the definition of theism. You can’t embrace the concept of a higher power and remain an atheist.
Well, one or more higher powers. I suppose a polytheist can look to one of the gods.
I agree with what Puzzlegal said. When those people said Higher Power they meant an entity, a force, something that can take action or influence. The feel of religious overtones in most meetings is very very strong. I’ll be glad to discuss it with you if you are still finding the accounts of meetings hard to believe.
On this point, AA, for all the faults that I personally see in their approach, is not the problem.
The real problem is the vast majority of medical practitioners, as well as everyday laypersons, that continue to believe that anyone who complains of any kind of issue with alcohol consumption, must attend AA meetings because anything else will definitely put them on a course toward death and destruction.
You say that “AA pretends to have the answer for treatment” only for hard-core, chronic alcoholics. That may once have been the case. That may have been what the organization believed in its formative years but that has changed. And that was not the experience I’ve had with AA at times over the last 15 years or so.
What I have found is that—these days at least—most 12-steppers consider anyone who has voluntarily or involuntarily attended one of their closed, “alcoholics only” meetings absolutely must be a chronic alcoholic… otherwise (their faulty logic goes) why would they be there?
But, as I said, the more serious problem is that medical professionals regularly send people who may be problem drinkers, but are * not* chronic alcoholics, to AA and that is the wrong thing to do. It rarely helps those folks at all, and in fact, often harms them.