Ahhh… the good old days! People who only have “mild” and/or temporary problems with alcohol do not belong in a black or white, abstinence or nothing programs. They *should *be turned away… they don’t belong there… it is not good for them!
Indeed, AA does *not *work for the “moderate drunk”. It often leads them to binging on alcohol more so than they would with other programs.
This is not entirely the fault of the Steppers, but in many meetings the members do contribute to it. It is the conventional wisdom of the average person on the street, as well as the stranglehold AA has on alcohol treatment that leads to the dangerous situation of people being led, coerced, or forced into such a extreme treatment who have no reason or business being in a religious/spiritual program, that should only be utilized by the most extreme, chronic drunks.
I’ve only been to one meeting, but that meeting was, imo, obviously a religious service. And that wasn’t just an accident of the particular meeting I attended, it was built into the program. You don’t have to call the higher power “Jesus”, but you have to believe in a higher power who has a lot of the attributes of Jesus to fully participate and follow through with the steps.
I don’t say this as a criticism of AA. Lots of people have found religion helpful in straightening out their lives in one way or another, and this seems to be a religion tailored to help alcoholics (and compatible with also participating on another religion.) And it certainly doesn’t seem like the sort of creepy cult that separates you from your family and takes all your labor and wealth. Quite the contrary, there’s quite a lot about reconnecting with your loved ones.
I have no idea whether it is good or bad for which types of drinkers. But on constitutional/freedom of religion grounds, I don’t like the idea of people being legally forced to participate in it.
Here we have the little elephants in the corner of any discussion of AA, clearing their throats: AA is “run” by untrained amateurs, not all of them at the head of the class, and Dunning and Kruger go into effect. It gives them a hammer, but no way to deal with anything that isn’t a nail, or even recognize there are things besides nails.
AA does not address any underlying mental illness. Its people do what they can using talk therapy, but many are dead set against anybody using any “chemicals” to improve their outcome, especially psychiatric meds. Again, they aren’t mental health professionals, and should not be expected to operate like pros.
Finally, heavy, longterm alcohol use can damage the brain, often permanently. One of the ways I’ve seen this manifest itself is by a total inflexibility, an attitude of “my way or the highway straight to Hell,” especially in the early years of their sobriety, while their brains rebuild. It’s not surprising, as they are themselves working hard to fix themselves and there isn’t much room for subtlety. Of course, far from all AA’s are like this, most eventually adopting the “this worked for me, maybe it will work for you” attitude, but it exists, especially among the loudest members, and it leads to an “inmates running the asylum” atmosphere.
I agree, wholeheartedly. While the lack of an overall national or state level structure is in many ways a benefit, it is also a curse. It lets the stronger, more vocal members espouse beliefs that are not only unscientific, but are not even founded in the big book principles. The solution for this is to find another home group or even start one yourself with others who think like you.
I had a friend come to me and tell me that his sponsor told him that he should stop taking his prescribed klonopin (treatment for panic disorder and depression) because it “acts on the same receptors as alcohol does.” Ok, so fucking what? Should he also stop eating because the food goes into the same organ (stomach, intestines) that alcohol does?
The level of ignorance in that statement astounded me. Yes, klonopin does act on those same receptors, but it is being used for a medically necessary reason and in a controlled, prescribed dosage. If he starts getting DUIs, missing work, blowing his whole paycheck, or beating his wife because of a small regulated dose of klonopin, then the sponsor would have a point. Otherwise, he’s just spouting drivel.
The meeting rooms are full of dickheads who are uneducated, inexperienced, and love the fact that they are in control. Get out of these groups, ASAP! Most posters here are above average in intelligence. If you have made a choice to try the program and some guy tells you something off the wall like this, see if it is in the big book and/or agreed upon by everyone in the group. Even then get some outside input.
Some groups are likewise intolerant, either openly or not so openly, of those who do not belong to the Christian faith. Get rid of that group if you are uncomfortable with that. This isn’t the Catholic church. This is sobriety and find a different group or start your own for atheists/agnostics.
But, the existence of such people should not be a condemnation of the AA method as a whole. Hell, there are assholes in every organization. There are assholes at my workplace (and I am the only one who works there. ) Any group has room for improvement, and many members of AA forget this. They believe that they have found the immutable answer as if Bill W. is like Moses coming down from Mt. Sinai.
So yes, I understand many people’s frustrations with some groups imposing religion and having their own little pet peeves about other things that you do in your lives. Those aren’t universal. Working with the courts is universal and I blame all groups for that. The solution: start your own home group.
I still contend that for all of its faults, AA succeeds at its primary mission: it gives hope to desperate alcoholics at the end of their ropes. Without AA, there is nothing besides being locked up in a hospital. If tomorrow there is a pill that cures alcoholism, then great, AA should pack up and go home. Until then, I think that the criticism of it is unfair when the group itself asks for nothing and merely invites people to give their way a shot.
I disagree. Do you (the general you) believe that you are the most powerful thing in the entire universe and that nothing is more powerful than your own reasoning and intellect?
Say you are on day two of your sobriety. Wouldn’t five people who are like you who have fifteen years of sobriety, fifteen years of learning and talking among themselves about the same problem you have, collectively be more powerful at solving your problem than your own intellect?
In terms of things that actually effect change in my life? Certainly. Well, subject to Mrs. B’s approval, but that’s another story.
There is a vast difference between “believing in more powerful things” - which is a certainty, unless perhaps you’re Mr. President Clark Kent - and believing those “powers” have the slightest interest in or controllable effect on your life. One is almost assuredly a fact. The other is called “theology.”
Of course you do. Everyone sees the good; everyone assumes the good is near-universal and that any “bad” is only for those few personal failures that even AA can’t help.
And that’s the problem. I’ll say it again: “AA works for those AA works for.” Which is neither everyone, nor all “drunks,” nor all those who have a problem with alcohol… but you’d have to go a long way in a crowd to find many who recognize that.
Intense prayer has cured cancer, too… for some very small number of people. That doesn’t mean we can send oncologists to play golf for the rest of their lives and close down the therapy clinics. But then, it’s not some great majority that believes prayer is a cure, especially the cure, to the point where everything else is some minor fringe option.
You were joking, but you made a point. Suppose you were an alcoholic at your wits end. You cannot rationalize things competently. However, Mrs. B is a straight thinker, she loves you, loves your relationship with your family/kids/family friends. She loves having you around for support.
You both want YOU to stop drinking. She has more power in this situation to see the right thing than you do.
Your boss has invested time and energy into you. He liked your work (and possibly your friendship). He has a vested interest in the old “you” coming back. Your friends want to back. The AA group wants you to get better.
All of these things are methods of support that individually and collectively have more power than you going at it alone and are a “higher power.”
“It’s cheaper than a movie, and there’s free coffee.”
Marla Singer
While AA was my lifeline and a blessing to me personally, 13 years now and no signs of slipping, I also availed myself of medical help, and other methods to be free at last.
Dude, Mrs. Barbarian is not God, not even to Mr. Barbarian. She doesn’t have the power to “remove his shortcomings”. Nor would it be healthy for him to turn his will and his life over to the care of Mrs. Barbarian. He doesn’t have to pray to learn her will, either.
AA is based on Christian principles. That’s partly good, and partly bad, but really pretty straightforward. It’s a form of Christianity that’s deracinated enough that you could continue to be a member of some non-Christian faith (and just pick up some non-standard views of God, from the perspective of that other faith) But it’s still religion, and I don’t think you could follow the 12 steps and continue to be an atheist.
If people at meetings sounded anything like the literature, including the twelve steps, I would never show up. Much of the literature hasn’t changed since it was first written by a couple of relatively well off white Protestant guys many decades ago. People translate it into a language that works for them
I completely agree that 1) AA only works for some people and 2) AA should not be in the court business. What mystifies me is how passionate its opponents can be in arguing against it. I’m genuinely curious why anyone who doesn’t find it useful cares about it. Especially without any direct experience with it.
But yes, the “higher power” argument gets very slippery when you attempt to pin it down and object to its overtly Christian basis. Then it becomes, “Oh, no, no, it’s not that GOD fella, it’s just anything stronger than you are, like that horse over there or a bridge pillar or an ant.”
Right.
Or just the concept that you aren’t the strongest being in existence, which becomes essentially self-cancelling in that context. No doubt there are much stronger drunks than you… proving…?
But that all depends of what is meant by “higher power”. And that is my point. You can embrace the concept of a higher power and remain an atheist, if your “higher power” is the collective love of all the people in your life.
I had a real problem with the steps, but I stuck around long enough to realize almost nobody actually believed in them, did them, or even cared that much about them.
It really is like a religion. Almost nobody actually follows the teachings.
FWIW here is the APA treatment guideline for alcohol use disorder. They discuss the role of medication and also state this (pg 98 ff):
TLDNR? The official American Psychiatry Association take on the evidence such as it is is that AA is worth a trial and is more likely to be a good fit for those with particular characteristics.
Until now. You could say the exact same thing no matter what the “Higher Power” is. If that “Higher Power” is in fact a God, then that God has also been powerless against the alcoholics drinking behaviors. Until now.
Yes, because before you were telling all of those people to piss off because you wanted to drink/could control your drinking. Now, you are accepting their help.
Duh. Have you even read the posts by several AA vets who have, in the past day, said exactly the same thing?
No, it hasn’t, but neither have any of us said that intense prayer, or even ANY prayer, cured us. Neither does AA. You are triumphing over strawmen of your own making. This bears repeating because you haven’t noticed it said several times by several people:
There’s a fair amount of magical thinking there, too! But people aren’t machines, and our troubleshooting flowcharts are complex and incomplete. Glad it helps you.
) Any group has room for improvement, and many members of AA forget this. They believe that they have found the immutable answer as if Bill W. is like Moses coming down from Mt. Sinai.