This is what I saw the first time I read your post.
Those of you who don’t approve of closers simply don’t have Mariano Rivera on your team. At his most effective he for practical purposes turns every game into an 8-inning-only contest.
We’re not disagreeing with the players themselves, we’re disagreeing with their use. If it’s the 8th inning and the Yanks are up by one and facing the meat of the order, why wouldn’t you use Mo there, instead of waiting for Ramirez to possibly blow it, and not be able to use Mo until tomorrow? It’s ridiculous. Farnsworth has been used in three very clear instances where he was not the best pitcher available, and using Soria would have made a world of sense. But no - Farnsworth is now 0-3, and Soria went 8 days without work. Brilliant.
Way to completely miss the point.
As Munch suggests, no-one is questioning how good Rivera is as a pitcher. We’re simply pointing out that you can get the most out of an awesome pitcher like Rivera if you don’t slap the label Closer on him, and bring him in only in the ninth inning.
I don’t know how many times over the past couple of years i’ve heard Yankee commentators, talking about the Yankee bullpen, saying things like “The Yankees are having a lot of trouble getting to Rivera.” When they say this, what they mean is that some second-rate relief pitcher is being used in the 6th or 7th or 8th innings, in the desperate hope that he can keep the game close until the 9th, when Rivera can come in.
Now, in cases where the Yankees are up (or down) by three or four runs, it probably makes sense to use those guys. But in what the stat guys call “high-leverage situations,” where the game is close and in a very important situation, why not bring Rivera in earlier in order to make the absolute most of his incredible ability to get outs?
I reckon, if you go back through Yankee games over the past decade, you could find more than a handful of cases where the Yankees have given up crucial runs in the 7th or 8th inning and lost the game, and where putting Rivera in earlier, instead of keeping him for the Closer role, might have won them the game.
So why limit yourself to only the first 8 innings? What if the most difficult inning in a game might be in the 7th (i.e. you see you’re up against Pedroia/Ortiz/Youk), and your lesser bullpen arms can face the less intimidating Drew/Bay/Lowell and Varitek/Green/Ellsbury later? It’s irrational.
I see what you all are saying about getting rid of a designated closer and perhaps a committee might be a better approach, but there is something to a player knowing when he is going to have to come into the game. For instance, the Mariner’s set-up guy David Aardsma…
With the way that Aardsma is pitching(and closer Brandon Morrow too), I’ll take his word on the value of it and have no problems with the M’s sticking with this concept.
Is there anyway to compare and contrast the long-term effectiveness of teams that use(have used) a committee to those that have established set-up and closers roles?
Players like to have a role, whether it be closer, set up guy, clean up hitter, or everyday shortstop. Players don’t play as well when they don’t know what their job is. This is why closer by committee doesn’t work.
Good on ya, Reds! Pounding the Cubbies into submission! 7-3 road trip. WOOT!
Bullshit. these people are professional athletes, and they should be able to do the job.
Anyway, “Closer” is no more or less a “role” than “Awesome pitcher who comes in when the game is late and tight.” Would you be happier if we invented a single word for “Awesome pitcher who comes in when the game is late and tight”? Why don’t we call him the Holder, or the Stopper? Would that satisfy your irrational desire for a “role”?
It is noteworthy that when the playoffs roll around, Rivera is used less often in traditional save situations. In the regular season, 64.4% of his relief appearances are save situations; in the playoffs, 49%.
Why? Because in the playoffs a manager is more willing to do what it takes to win, rather than just avoiding blame for losing. Rivera is brought into more situations in the playoff because it is just really obvious he’s the greatest pitcher on the team - he is, IMHO, the best relief pitcher who ever lived, actually - so when you absolutely must have an out, in comes Mo. Why would you call on anyone else?
But the “closer” role didn’t exist until about 15-20 years ago. Prior to that, relief aces were often used in non-save or long-save situations.
If Mariano Rivera can hack being used in some key pre-ninth-inning situations against playoff opponents, why not do it in June? A pitcher’s either a go-od pitcher or a bad one; pitchers who are such head cases that they can’t pitch in the seventh inning on Tuesday and the ninth on Friday are frankly probably not major league material.
Thing is, though, even under the current system he can never be sure exactly when he’s going to come in. No relief pitcher can.
If your starter has an awful day, and gives up six hits and five runs in the first, chances are that someone is going to come out of the bullpen much earlier than expected. And if that guy can’t get the job done, and you don’t want to give up the game entirely, you’re going to try someone else. There’s always a chance that a bullpen pitcher might have to pitch in a different inning/s than he expects, and they have to learn to deal with it.
While we’re on the subject of relief pitching, if i had my druthers i’d make a rule that a pitcher, unless injured on the field of play, must face at least two (hell, maybe three) batters.
In the Reds-Cardinals game today, Tony LaRussa used 4 pitchers to get the final 5 outs. Miller, Reyes and Mott faced one hitter each (and they got those hitters out), and Perez walked one and got two outs. This included two pitching changes in the final inning, when the Reds were up by 4 and there was one guy on base.
I realize that most people will probably think this is a stupid idea, but i think this number of pitching changes, especially in relatively non-critical situations, is pointless and simply makes the game drag on longer than necessary. I understand why, under the current rule system, the managers do it; they want the best match-ups in each situation. Obviously we don’t want to set up a situation where pitchers throw too much, and are at risk of damaging their arms, but if we changed the rules somehow to limit the number of pitching changes, or set a minimum number of hitters that each pitcher must face, i think the game would lose nothing, and the tail end of games would not drag so much with multiple pitching changes.
Just MHO.
The Reds played the Cubs today. And trashed Zambrano.
Oops. I was watching both games, and got my single-syllable NL teams mixed up. I meant the Mets, of course.
Ha, it’s OK. The Reds won, impressively so. I’m just so happy that they managed 7-3 in road series against all divisional opponents. Two of three from the Brewers in Milwaukee, three of four from Houston in Houston, and now two of three from the Cubs to return home to play…the Braves I think.
It’s hard to get too excited this early in the year, but aside from Micah Owings as our #5 in the rotation (who’s an awesome hitting pitcher, btw), our starting pitching has been pretty stout, and will become even moreso once our allstar Volquez gets himself back to form.
Our bullpen is excellent so far. Rhodes, Weathers, Lincoln, Cordero…awesome.
Strangely enough, we aren’t hitting well at all, a few games like today’s aside. Our team batting average is hovering just above .200.
I don’t have anything intelligent to say about the closer debate, but I just wanted to crow that the Cards swept the Mets! Woo-hoo. After dropping two of three to the Cubs, this was a nice mid-week series. Hopefully they’ll keep it going when the Cubs come to Busch Stadium tomorrow.
Toronto with two good news items and one bad.
Good news: They beat Texas, and are 12-5. A few more days in first!
Bad news: Ricky Romero, who started the year so well, is out for 2-4 weeks.
Good news: B.J. Ryan’s hurt, too!
Ryan going down (with an injury the stupid ox was probably hiding for months) improves the staff, since Ryan is sub-replacement level and any one of 6-8 guys they have handy could pitch better. He was replaced by Jeremy Accardo, a perfectly decent pitcher who was wasting his time in Las Vegas.
Losing Romero sucks, though, as those starts now have to go to the guys he beat out for that job.
In what will be a down year for my Brewers, especially because of a lack of pitching, I want to commend Mr. Dave Bush for giving us fans a rare pitching gem that probably won’t be seen again this season.
Go Brewers!
BJ on the DL helps me save face.
I really needed to drop him.
I was such a sucker even picking him up. I was blinded by how good he was (3-4 years ago?) with Baltimore.
I had high hopes, but little knowlege of how much he had gone to shit.
If it wasn’t for the fact that Toronto was off to such a good start…
Oh well, some day I’ll learn.
Yanks - Red Sox @ Fenway this weekend. Should be a good series. Tomorrow is Beckett vs. Burnett, two guys who killed the Yankees in the '03 Series.