Fired after resigning? Can they?

Factual Questions
1

My current job BLOWS. I have received an offer to come back to my previous job at a 40% increase in salary, moving expenses, the whole shebang. That position will not be available until June. I have already accepted their firm offer.

Should I give notice now? Can they fire me after I give notice? What are the laws in my state (Virginia) regarding notice of termination - are they required to give 2 weeks notice when terminating (or 2 weeks pay for immediate termination).

Also, I think they may be getting ready to fire me anyway, should I resign first?

Thanks!

Phouchg

2

IANALawyer or a personnel director, but I can tell you this from my experience in the world of employment:

  1. Quitting will look better later. The “I quit/You can’t quit, you’re fired” thing only happens on TV. If you quit, it’s too late for them to fire you. And you don’t want later on to have a prospective employer discover that you were “discharged,” because that will make them wonder why and they probably won’t believe your explanation completely. If you quit, whatever reason you give will be good enough, especially if there’s no significant delay before your next job.

  2. When you quit, submit a written, dated, and signed letter of resignation stating what your last date will be. Set it as far off as you realistically can. It is common for employers to accept a resignation, then simply pay you off through your last day and have security escort you from the building. Don’t take this personally. No employer wants somebody on short time hanging around. There’s too much potential for disaster. If you can’t imagine all the possibilities, just ask yourself “What could I do to ruin this company if I didn’t care if they fired me?” Every possible thing you can think of, they’ve already thought of and don’t want to happen.

  3. If they’re seriously getting ready to fire you and you don’t have anything lined up, then let them. You can’t collect unemployment if you quit.

Good luck!

3

No, you should not give notice now. Give two weeks notice. Yes, they can fire you after you give notice. IANAL, but I wouldn’t count on anything after you give notice - another reason not to give more than two weeks notice.

Nah. If they fire you, you can probably collect unemployment benefits (see below).

I would give no more than two weeks notice and try not to let it bother you too much if they turn around and fire you. I gave two weeks notice at one job; they asked me if I could pack my things and leave the premises by noon. I did and they paid me for a little over two weeks. I wasn’t fired though.

Generally this is true. However, there are exceptions. If you quit “with cause” you may be able to collect. I know of one person who quit because her hours were cut back. She applied for unemployment, the employer contested, she didn’t show up for the hearing, and she still received unemployment compensation. OTOH, if you are fired for certain reasons, you may be ineligible. I don’t recall what reasons specifically, just that you have to do something Really Bad.

4

Not a lawyer, but been there.

Do you have a contract, letter of agreement or employee handbook? If so it probably spells out something like “either party may terminate this agreement with two weeks notice” or words to that effect. That means you have to give them 2 weeks if you quit, and they have to pay you for 2 weeks if they can you.

On the other hand, if they refer to you as “employee at will,” “independent contractor” or some other terms, they can punch your ticket and show you the door with no severance.

And, as always, local laws may differ.

5

So I did give my notice yesterday. My direct manager (who is OK) was happy for me, but her manager was furious - she wanted me to pack up and leave that afternoon. Cooler heads prevailed. They agreed to keep me on one more week, and pay me one week beyond that.

Not the best result, but certainly not the worst.

6

Good luck, Phouchg.

7

Moot points:

[ul]
[li]It’s always best to leave on good terms, as evidenced by your old company hiring you back.[/li]
[li]Companies are loathe to fire/lay-off people, as it raises their unemployment insurance premium.[/li]
Since you’ve since given your notice, they’d be even more inclined to keep you rather than fire you, as you’ll be gone soon anyway.
[/ul]

8

I believe that even after you’ve turned in your resignation, you can be fired “for cause”. I once knew a person who said they knew a woman who had been fired on her last scheduled day of work, for taking a long lunch. (In this case, the woman had been generally disliked by all).

9

This happened to me. I gave two weeks notice at a lousy assembly job because I had finally landed a job that I had gone to school for, which would pay more than twice as much. The people I did the assembly work for had treated me like dirt, so I don’t know why they thought I would do anything but jump at the chance to leave. These people then cut me a check for the time I had in on that pay period and told me to take off. They then told my new employer that they had fired me for attendance problems. I had missed exactly three days in the five months I worked there, one because of a blizzard that dropped two feet of snow and kept the buses from running, one to take a test for the new job, and one to go to interview at the new place of employment. I had to take off the whole day in those cases because I didn’t have a car and had to take the bus. I told the HR person at my new job, who asked me about what they said, what the circumstances were, and she believed me, so I didn’t have to try to sue them, which I wouldn’t have been able to afford, anyway.

This was in Colorado, I don’t know if Virginia would have a law against that sort of thing.

10

FWIW -

Different firms have differing policies on giving notice.

My last job before my current required four weeks notice when quitting, and they made me work the whole four weeks. It was more than a little ridiculous, as these were hardly the most productive four weeks of my career.

I can remember sitting in a stupid QA session on my last day that was dragging on for hours. I glanced at my watch, stood up, and said “As of about twenty minutes ago, I no longer work here. Good luck with the install.” and started to leave. My manager said “Wait a minute - we aren’t nearly done yet.” I said “Who cares?” and continued.

Then the weasel started pulling an attitude and telling me to sit down. I had the most satisfying moment of the ten years I spent at that place. I looked him dead in the eye and said “What are you going to do - fire me?” and left.

Their install failed miserably, and as of my last review, I am making a bit more than double my ending salary at that place.

Neener neener neener…

Regards,
Shodan

11

I had a job where the contract said I had to give twenty business days notice. I saw them call someone on a Friday night and tell them not to come back. I didn’t like the job and I found another one. I gave two weeks notice over the phone. They said they didn’t accept it and threatened legal action. So, I faxed a short business-like letter stating when my last day would be. They backed down.

12

Need to make one quick distinction here:

To fire you is to dismiss you with cause – and even in “right to work” states where the employer has at-will grounds, there are clear legal definitions of “just cause” that are strictly adhered to by Labor/unemployment boards and such.

To dismiss you without cause (AKA “lay you off” – it doesn’t have to be for lack of work) can be within the rights of the management, as in “at will” employment. But this makes you eligible for unemployment.

And, unless you hold proprietary information and there’s reasonable grounds to think you may be planning to give it to a competing business (presumably for income), resigning to take another job has not been “just cause” for employer action against an employee since 1865.

13

I have a Human Resources background (state of Washington), and I can confirm, there’s good information here. Just to clarify, though: If you resign with two weeks notice, and the company elects to pay you the two weeks and make that your last day, that isn’t the same as firing you (technically called a “discharge”). You’re still considered to have resigned.

eulalia, your story reminds me of a piece of advice I can offer to everyone who’s looking at a job change.

Right before you give notice, ask to see your personnel file. In the vast majority of U.S. states (I don’t remember the exceptions, and I have no idea about other countries), you are legally entitled to look at your personnel file any time you want. You probably won’t be allowed to take it out of the department, but you can go to HR/Personnel and ask to read through it. (Remember to ask about secondary files, such as those maintained by managers, as well.)

As you read the file, make sure there isn’t anything weird in it, or that there’s nothing missing that you think should be in it, like a positive evaluation. You can ask to have the file amended, or, at the very least, you can give them a document to add to your file, something like “I disagreed with the facts of that one warning” or whatever if you haven’t done it already.

Then get a copy. Most companies have a procedure for this, and may charge you like a dime a page for the copy. The drawback of this is that you’re tipping your hand; HR will know that you’re probably planning to quit, or maybe that you’re acting on the advice of a lawyer. (BTW, IANAL. YMMV.) That’s why you don’t want to do this until right before you give notice. But you also don’t want to do this after you give notice, especially if you don’t trust the company to represent your employment history honestly. Deliberate deceptions are very, very rare, despite rampant employee paranoia, but it doesn’t hurt to cover your bases. (Most of the time, when stories differ, it’s simply because the HR department is behind on its filing, and there are additional bits of paper floating around. Make sure to ask about this when you get your copy.)

Anyway, if you get falsely accused of something, like what happened to eulalia, you have point-in-time documentation by which you can prove that the accusation is false and amounts to harassment and libel. In eulalia’s case, I would have called the head of HR at my old company, and explained what was going on. I then would have made this request: “Here’s what you’re going to do. You’re going to put something in writing. Either you’re going to put that accusation of attendance problems in writing, or you’re going to put a retraction in writing. Either way I expect a letter within five days.” And then hang up. If they put the accusation in writing, it’s lawsuit city, because you have the copy of your personnel file that demonstrates their accusation holds no water. And if you have the retraction in writing, obviously, they can’t make that accusation any more.

Just a few hopefully useful words of advice from someone who spent many years in HR.

14

I have a situation that I was wondering if you could shead some light on since you have a Washington background.

Just gave my two weeks to day…in the letter that I gave them stated that I would be more than happy to work out my two weeks in saying that honestly thought it was required.

They inturn said that because I am going to a competitor (soft competitor) that my last day would effectively be today and to inform my team. No compensation was offered for the two weeks that I thought I would be working. They informed me that my vacation would be paid per company policy…have a nice life basically.

Now this is a company that I have been at for 5 years…have so many sick days added up cause I never call in (i understand those will not be paid) and that I have been very loyal too.

But when they told me that I really stepped back and felt like shit.

Can they do that without asking me if I would like today to be my last day…or can they just say no compensation, today is your last day??? Because they did not ask…they told.

15

Geerboy,

you have resurrected a thread from 2001, and addressed a query to a user who has not posted here since 2009 - you are unlikely to get an answer.

Try starting a new thread with your query.

Si

16

I agree a new thread is best, but I am in H/R and I can tell you as a general rule once you give notice, the company is free to ask you to leave and that is that.

State and local laws vary a bit but absent a contract or union bargaining agreement, sick time and holiday time are conditional benefits. Meaning you don’t get sick time unless you’re sick. So if you quit, they don’t have to pay you.

Vacation time is earned. So they should pay you any accrued time off.

However there are ways of getting around this. As for quitting and being asked to leave, I have had two cases where we have done this and the person filed for unemployment and the arbitrator has sided with them. All the other times, the arbitrator has said, once you quit, you lose all standing for unemployment.

Don’t feel bad, that is standard procedure at most companies, and mine too. Almost all managers and up, who resign are “walked” the day they give notice. We don’t want them around once the give notice.

Frankly if I could have my way, I’d do this for everyone who quits, because the two weeks notice isn’t much help to me replacing anyone, and the person quitting more often than not just goofs off anyway.

All you can do is this: if you’re in the USA, then go to your state department of labor website.

Go to the section called Wages and Hours. You can file a claim with them or shoot them an email. They’ll tell you pretty quick if you’re company is out of line.

I can tell you as an H/R person we don’t pay sick time when a person quit, but if they make a fuss, we will. I don’t want to deal with the hassles from the state labor board, even if we win it’s a pain.

You could file for unemployment, I doubt you’d get it, but who knows, maybe you’ll get a friendly arbitrator. All they can do is turn you down.

17

Unless you are under a bargaining agreement, you can be terminated for no reason at any time. Did you think you were special or something?

18

Wow, I started reading this w/o looking at the date and was all “Cervaise is back!”.

bummer

19

Just to put my two cents in, as soon as I knew I was leaving, I’d start cleaning out my work space. Take home all accoutrements, shred or throw away all paperwork you no longer need, copy your rolodex of useful contacts and shred. Then turn in your notice two weeks before YOU want to leave. People will think you’re just cleaning up your space and you won’t have to pack up your stuff with a guard standing by or by a manager packing up your stuff. Control as much as you can.

20

This is the best distinction.
You can be FIRED at any time for actions that are unacceptable to a normal emloyer - theft, insubordination, chronic lateness, drunk on job, etc.
If you can’t be fired for cause, they lay you off (entitled to unemployment) or you quit.

If you gave your notice for 2 weeks away, and they told you to get lost today, then what they actually owe you is determined by local state labour standards. Many states, the labour law will state 2 weeks notice. Pay to go away in lieu of notice is a typical thing.

Finally, note that businesses and departments are run by people. Some, oddly, are dicks. Dicks will try to get away with whatever they can, especially if you don’t contest it. If the business is big enoug to have “teams”, then it’s possible that some mid-level frustrated tiny dick is just jerking your chain, and going over his head may resolve it. If not, what you get is what labour standards say you get.

Labour standards have rules for notice and vacation. Things like “sick day policy” are entirely arbitrary unless you have some written policy that says you can add sick day payout to your final cheque.