After the first four batters, the bases are loaded and there is one out. Batter five hits a long fly ball, caught for out 2. All three runners attempt to advance after the catch. The throw went to the second baseman. The second baseman received the throw standing on second, then the runner at third base crossed home plate, then the runner from first was tagged out at second, for out 3. The second baseman appeals to the umpire that the runner from second left early. The umpire agrees. Out 4. Run is canceled and only the runner originally on third is left on base. It is important that the runner from third cross home before the runner from first is called out. It may or may not be important that the ball reached the second baseman standing on second before. I have a vague memory that as I saw this “4th out” rule described, it didn’t. But crucial to the question is that the runner from first is actually out and what is described is the 4th out of the inning.
How about something like this? First three batters get on. Next batter hits a fly ball that’s caught. One out. While the ball is in the air, the base runners, being not sure about the ball being caught or not, start running in crazy directions. Two base runners actually pass another base runner in front of them, so they’re both out (such as the runner on 1B passes the guy on 2B, the runner on 2B passes the runner on 3B). Three outs. Only one runner LOB.
First two guys out, next two guys reach, runners on first and second. Fifth guy starts batting, takes some number of pitches. Double steal attempted, runner thrown out at second.
Five batters come up, one left on. No runs. Any objection?
Yes, I said five batters batted. Let me make it clearer. Five batters finished their at bats. And the fifth does not bat in the next inning (unless at least nine bat). So five completed at bats are required. Actually, a subsidiary question is: has it ever happened in the major leagues? I would guess not. But it is within the rules.
As long as I am asking obscure questions: Has there ever been a five strikeout inning? Of course four strikeouts happen from time to time and five (or even more) are theoretically possible. Has it ever happened?
Hmmm, you’re right. I miscounted. I guess the answer must be a weird situation where there are four outs in the inning. OK, how about first 3 gets on. Next guy makes an out, no one advances. The fifth batter hits a popup. Before it lands, runner at 2B passes runner at 3B so he’s out. The popup hits the runner who was at 3B between 3B and home so he’s out and the batter is out. Runner on 1B is LOB.
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Let’s think here.
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walk, walk, runner thrown out trying to steal third/runner advances, strikeout/passed ball, walk, strikeout, strikeout.
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That’s without looking at the article.
MMM
Not Cecil’s answer.
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I think the crux of it might be the strikeout/passed ball. Classic example of how that can foul up an inning is the 1941 World Series.
MMM
Oh?
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The Dodgers lost a critical game to the Yankees when their catcher Mickey Owen couldn’t hang on to a strike three, allowing the runner to get on base and sparking a Yankee rally.
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It’s how you can, technically, have four or more strikeouts in one inning.
MMM
Ah. Yes, I can see how that would foul things up.
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So, in that case, the Dodgers got four outs in the top of the ninth.
MMM
Huh! Weird.
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Now, in my example: walk - runner at first, no out; walk, runners at 1st and 2nd no out; runner out stealing 3rd, runner at 2nd, 1 out; strikeout passed pall - runners at corners, 1 out; walk, bases loaded, one out; 2 strikeouts, leaving bases loaded, no score.
MMM
Hum!
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7 runners, no runs scored.
MMM
Indeed!
I think “there are five batters” and “five batters finished their at-bats” mean very different things. But, yes, under your clarification, my scenario doesn’t work. I’m pretty sure you need an appeal play for your scenario to be possible.
This is not the proper call on this play. First the out on the runner originally on second occurs at the time of the appeal and is not a force out. It does not cancel the run if the run scored before the appeal. So in this case there is no advantage in the fourth out as the run will still count. But if the appeal is accepted, then the fourth out replaces the third out and the runner originally on first base is no longer out and is still counted as left on base.
Finally, your having the second baseman standing on second complicates things. Although the play on that runner is an appeal play, if the second baseman appears to be purposely standing on second base when he receives the throw the umpire will most likely call that runner out immediately even without being asked and then the run won’t count if the runner has not yet crossed home.
But you can have fourth outs. Forget the runner on second. Suppose he just stands there. The runner from first is tagged for out three after the runner from third crossed the plate. Then the defense appeals that the runner from third left too soon. This fourth out replaces out three, the run doesn’t count, and the runner originally on first (as well as the one on second) is left on base.
Your scenario is impossible in any other case as well. If you read the section in Rule 10 on “Proving a box score” you’ll see that left on base must exactly match with batters facing pitchers, etc.
B1 walks,
B2 walks, B1 advances to 2nd
B1 gets thrown out stealing 3rd & B2 advances to 2nd, all while B3 is at bat,
B3 gets to 1st on a strikeout passed ball, B2 advances to 3rd,
B4 walks, B3 advances to 2nd to load the bases
B5 strikes out
B6 strikes out
As anyone who’s ever kept score at a game can verify, every batter who completes an at-bat must end up as either (1) an out, (2) a run, or (3) a player LOB.
It’s the easiest way to verify a box score: Runs + outs + LOB = total batters in a game. So useful, in fact, that a runner called out on the “fourth out” rule is marked as the third out and the actual third out is undone, i.e. the batter/runner or runner who committed the actual third out is marked in the scorebook as LOB. So in Hari Seldon’s scenario, statistically the runner from 1st who was tagged out at second (the original 3rd out) would be marked LOB.
Not bad, but not the answer. Hint: it has to be a situation in which the 4th out is required to prevent a run from counting. Otherwise the third out ends the inning.
To answer another poster: if you count strikeouts as outs you can, in principle, have any number of such “outs” in an inning. But they are not outs until they are established.
Well, I got this from Bill James, who indeed had the 4th out on the runner from 3rd. But I believe that on an appeal play, the timing of the out reverts to when the infraction (leaving the base early) occurs, not when it is signaled. If the 2nd baseman was on the base because that’s where the runner was coming in, then the umpire may wait for the appeal. But I must defer to your apparently superior knowledge on the scoring rules. From what Bill James said, I believed that the third out runner was really out and not LOB.
In the majors, no. In the minors, several times, including by future White Sox pitcher Kelly Wunsch in 1994 when he was pitching with Beloit in the Midwest League.
First two men out
Next two batters get on first and second. Hit and run, hard hit ball to third and the fielder tags third before runner gets to first. I believe if it happens before the runner gets to first hes not considered as ever being on base.
Nope the out on an appeal play occurs when the appeal is made. Now if it’s an appeal on a runner who misses the first base he’s forced to advance to, then this is a force out and a run cannot score on that play if that appeal play is the third out. Also if a preceding runner is called out on appeal for out three, a following runner cannot score. This is one reason why there may be a “fourth” out in an inning.
For example, an appeal on the batter missing first base on a “double” when runners on second and third score and the runner on first is throw out at the plate for out three will cancel the two runs and the original third out is replaced so 3 men are LOB.
Conversely if the runner from second misses home and the batter is thrown out trying to stretch to a triple for out three an appeal at home would be the replacement third out. The original runner on third scores, the runner from second is out on appeal and the runner from first cannot score because he is a following runner.
Now suppose there is one out and bases loaded and the batter hits a grand slam. The runner from first fails to touch third while the batter misses first. If the defense appeals at third base and then at first base, no runs score because the third out is the batter at first. If the defense appeals at first base and then at third, then two runs count as out three was not a force.
No the batter is considered LOB. He needn’t get there before the out is made and in fact seldom does. He needn’t even get there at all; he could stand in the batter’s box for the entire time or head for the dugout though his manager might have something to say to him. If he actually got to the dugout before the out was recorded, the umpire could declare him out, but that would have to be a very slow roller and a very slow runner (or an incredilbly fast batter)
