As Paul in Saudi correctly noted above, playing games like this can start wars. Perhaps you think this shouldn’t be so, but that fact remains.
Why, thank you for the lesson in cold reality! As you already clearly know, I am but a winsome woolgathering hippie, wandering about in blissful ignorance. Having only a glancing familiarity with history, I was unaware of the possible danger. How happy you must be to have a leader like GW, who is so unlikely to exaggerate the importance of this dreadful provocation! Regretably, I do not share your confidence.
Trying to find a cite that you would find acceptable (it will come as no surprise that details such as this are usually on more militarily oriented sites…and that most of the liberal type sites tend to avoid such details). There is a good article on Jane’s that talks about the ed. confrontation AND talks about the various types of military use vessels Iran uses (including the boats used in this confrontation)…but unfortunately it is a subscription only site.
I can’t find a good picture of it (nor have I seen any official conformation of exactly what class these boats were), but on another message board I peak in on sometimes they are speculating it might be a PGM-71 Parvin class light attack/patrol boat. The Islamic Republic of Iran Navy doesn’t always run with markings. If it IS that boat (it looks essentially like a speed boat) then it is armed with (1) 40 mm, (2) 20 mm, (2) 12.7 mm. It could also be a Kaivan class (one guy says it could be a Zafar but looking at the picture I doubt it…if it WAS, it would be much more of a threat as the Zafar has 4 x TL-10 or C-701 Kowsar light anti-ship missiles, 1 x manned cannon (20 mm?), Short range C-701, Machine Gun).
-XT
I watched the US video. I didn’t see any shots of the white boxes. I didn’t see any shots of the boats dropping boxes in front of the ships. I didn’t see shots of the boats cutting in front of the ships.
The Iranians did look like they were being assholes. Presuming that the video has been edited for us to see the worst behavior on their part during the incident, they didn’t look like they were doing anything particularly menacing. The fact that the video was released, and included some kind of fabricated radio threat, makes me confident that this was some kind of very lame ass attempt to sway opinions about conflict with Iran.
If nothing else, we all better be goddamn savvy at this point about the lengths our current government will go to get upset about the threats posed by countries that start with “Ira”.
Hmmm. This identification as “Boghammars”? This is your own, or have you neglected to offer the citation? And if your own, the nature of your expertise? Is this vessel exclusively deployed by the Iranian Navy? No civilian could have access to such a boat? And this “general term for improvised naval fighting vessel”? What does that mean, perzackly? Where are the markings to identify the boat as a military vessel of the Iranian Navy? Don’t fighting vessels have weapons, as a general rule?
So far, it isn’t proven that these vessels were “going against our ships” in the first instance. One thing at a time, Moto, and then you can offer us your authoritative expertise on how Iranian society is organized.
In my experience, most conservative type sites tend to avoid such details too.
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian
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In my experience, most conservative type sites tend to avoid such details too.
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I agree. I actually meant hard core military sites where they endlessly quibble about this weapon or that rocket or whatever. If you look on Foxnews, for instance, they have nothing more substantial as far as identification of these ships than, say, CNN…in fact they are essentially saying the exact same bullshit. Most of the other sites I looked at people were SPECULATING as to what type of vessels they were based on all kinds of esoteric stuff…none of which I felt was worth posting even here in the Pit. The most credulous I saw (only because they had a picture and it did look sort of like the boats in the video) was the guy saying it might be a Parvin class patrol boat…and that was on another message board so it’s a no-no to post a link to that here.
Other than that there is an article on Wiki that talks about all the different classes of ship in their Navy (both Navies I guess), but it doesn’t have any pictures. C’est la vie.
-XT
http://gnn.tv/headlines/6881/Declassified_docs_NSA_faked_Tonkin_intel
Tonkin was a fake. This administration ,of course,would never do such a thing. They are committed to the truth.
No snark intended, but where are they? Certainly sounds like formidable weaponry, what with all “mm”'s and stuff, but the pictures I saw didn’t show much of anything sticking up but some guys heads.
Were you aware that the Gulf of Tonkin incident happened in 1964? Just a reality check to make sure you are in the same universe as the rest of us.
-XT
elucidator, you act as if this is some sort of thing done by us against the Iranians in general, or a provocation by Republican presidents.
It isn’t anything of the sort.
The United States Navy routinely conducts freedom of navigation operations in areas where a coastal power has asserted a claim that is of dubious standing under maritime law. Such operations ensure that not only will we not recognize these dubious claims, but by asserting freedom of navigation in general, these claims will be much more difficult for these states to defend in the future.
We have done this in the Black Sea during the Cold War, we have done this in the Guld of Sidra when Libya made an unreasonable claim of the entire Gulf, we have done so in the Straits of Malacca, the Indonesian Archipelago, the Taiwan Straits. And we have done so in the Strait of Hormuz, where Iran has in the past attempted to interfere with free navigation.
This is quite longstanding American policy, and it can sure raise hackles - our Black Sea navigation led to a destroyer and cruiser of ours getting lightly rammed by a Soviet destroyer there in the 1980s. Intentionally rammed. You can’t get much more provocative than that without firing shots.
The Chinese don’t like it when we go through the Taiwan Straits either, and we did it again just after Thanksgiving.
Even so, I’m sure you recognize the value in these operations, and see how this fits into the overall whole.
I was 16, living on a SAC airbase. Bet yer ass I was aware.
The video is to grainy to see much, but in the picture I saw there was on gun mounted in the bow and the rest were mounted in the aft, with the two smaller guns mounted on the rails port and starboard. I really wish I could find a decent picture. And of course, this dude could be dead wrong about it being that particular class. I never heard of Moto’s “Boghammars” myself…I didn’t see that even mentioned on any of the sites I was looking at.
I doubt these patrol boats could have been a serious threat to major US warship…unless they got in very close, which is what they actually did. At those kinds of ranges the ships themselves could be dangerous…they are quite fast and maneuverable and you would be inside all but the close in defenses of the type of US ships we are talking about here.
Personally I think the Iranian’s were rattling our cage and now the Administration has decided to milk this thing for all it’s worth propaganda wise. So…we have the Iranian’s being stupid and we have Bush et al remaining as stupid as ever. Not a particularly good combination since both sides have weapons.
-XT
Are the SDMB Understatement of the Year Awards for 2008 open yet? I have a nominee…
The video itself is just fine. The problem is that the objects of interest are just too far away to make out clearly.
I act as someone who has abundantly lied to. I act like someone who is suspicious of the motives of men who exaggerate piddling provocations, however stupid.
The legitimacy of the US Navy’s presence was never in doubt, these are international waters, after all. You are refuting an argument not made. Refuting it splendidly, no doubt, but groundlessly. I cannot deny your point, but neither can I imagine why I should want to. It does for irrelevence what Stonehenge does for rocks.
Here you go. It’s from ABC News. I don’t see any guns, cannon, torpedoes or missiles mounted fore, aft, or on the rail.
Another Reichstag fire. We never learn what our governments are capable of and why we should not trust them. They lie. The WMD was not so long ago that we shouldn’t demand more. I am not on this bandwagon.
I don’t see any either. Looks unarmed to me from that picture at least.
-XT
Well…some of us learn. As for government’s lying…well doh! Are their lips moving? Thing is…Iran’s government is as capable of lying as the US government is. That is the point you seem incapable of understanding. While I don’t trust OUR government to tell the truth, I don’t expect their government to do so either…in fact, just the opposite.
The good thing is that since we have a free press the story will eventually come out…for those of us paying attention and not focused on the tin foil end of the stick.
What bandwagon exactly and who is on it? This seems a tempest in a tea kettle to me, despite Bush et al’s attempt to make more of it than was actually here. I’m seeing no train leaving the station here…
-XT