Flame of the Day (FotD)

It always amazed me that for decades the Russian government was able to effectively keep their own people completely in the dark regarding their activities.

But the more I read, the more I discovered that what I had learned and read in American History books and newspapers regarding the US government’s actions was total fiction.

To generalize the difference between the two - heh to the point of being wrong - is that most Russians knew they were being lied to and were resigned to it; whereas most Americans are either oblivious, or don’t give a sh-- what their government does, so long as it doesn’t effect them, and doesn’t alter their belief that America has the moral ground.

The problem is:
Name one madman (Osama included) in the last 50 years that the US hasn’t been directly or indirectly responsible in training and arming. Lets pick the wonderful way we’ve operated in the Mideast: The US sent agents to train the Shah of Iran’s secret police on how to interrogate and torture people - they even wrote them a manual; and the Shah’s men tortured and killed thousands for decades. When the Shah and the US were eventually thrown out of Iran, Iraq became the US’ new best friend, even though it was common knowledge that Saddam butchered people by the thousands and often leads his own torture sessions (apparently he gets off on burning people alive). Where do you think he got the equipment and technological knowledge for his ‘weapons of mass destruction’? Freaking aliens?

It’s not like these are isolated incidents, the US has done this time and time again. As long as the money’s good and we can get a hand in their pocket, what they do to their own people - and to some extent, their neighbor’s people - doesn’t matter. And then, AMAZINGLY, Americans are stunned when they discover there are actually people in this world that dislike the US.

The blame does not solely lie upon the US, international arms sales are a trillion dollar business, and it would appear that many of the major blunders our government has made regarding arms sales was because the US was afraid our ‘allies’ Britain, France or Russia would beat them to the deal. Where our own laws have blocked the weapons sale, our government arranges a third party to act as an intermediary.

(have to keep those hands clean…)

So… let’s take a look at Iraq. The US used it’s power to block the sale of food and medicine to Iraq over the last ten years. It’s not like Saddam was under any compunction to fairly distribute the supplies he did have. Instead he took care of his own, and the embargo effectively murdered thousands of the children whose people we purport to want to help by removing Saddam. How in any way does killing their children endear the US to them?

Ten years ago, it was decided to leave Saddam in office because his removal might cause Iraq to merge with Iran since the vast majority of its people share the same belief and culture of those currently in power in Iran. To see Persia reborn in the modern era was unpalatable to the US - too much foriegn oil in the control of people that could not be bargained with.

So what has changed? The US is now getting about 50% of it’s foreign oil from Russia. Soooo, time to clean house.

The hard cold fact is: US foreign policy is about making a buck, and selling destruction makes alot of them. There’s no doubt in my mind that the US - this administration in particular - would glass slag anybody - freaking anybody - and need no proof other than claiming it was necessary to protect our way of life, and most Americans would sleep well in their belief in God and country and all was well in the world.

I’m going to stop before I really get on a rant, or am I too late.

flames away,

Why do you hate America so much? You’ll make the baby Jesus cry with that attitude :smiley:

Buckle up boyo in my experience of this board you may be in for a hard time.

You can say shit BTW

Khomeni. Kim and Kim. Milosevic and Karadzic. Pol Pot. Shall I go on, or would you care to just start stretching the meaning of “directly or indirectly” past the point of all credibility?

By the way, please use a descriptive title in the future.

Dammit. I wasted a whole click.

Hrrm aren’t you leave out a number of USSR leaders in that too?

And I’m trying to figure out why you’re amazed that the USSR was able to keep it’s citizens ignorant of what their government was doing. Maybe the purges, gulogs (spelling?), state controleed media, propaganda, KGB, GRU and the assassinations had a little something to do with it.

I wish to thank Skordopordonikos for bringing light to these shameful things. Being an American, I was not aware of any of the events s/he described. Not a single one. Because I am oblivious and I don’t give a sh_t. Where are you from, Skoporodnikoprikos? You couldn’t possibly be an American with such acute political awareness and insight, so I am assuming you’re an outsider looking in at our corrupt society and wondering “What can I, a random doofus on a message board, do to enlighten these poor, ignorant Americans? Perhaps an incisive analysis of how everything that has happened in the last fifty years is entirely their fault should do the trick!” Bravo, says I.

And 33 keystrokes. The OP is indeed a waste. Flame of the Day my ass.

Ahhh, I specifically didn’t use a descriptive title because I was hoping I could filter most the the ‘u suck’ type intellectual responses.

As for your winner’s list:

Khomeni: rose to power specifically because of US sponsored atrocities committed by the Shah.

Kim and Kim: hhhmm, North Korea is a better example, but intertwining of interests and power in Asia is difficult to approach in a paragraph or two. (I’m not trying to weasel out, honestly;)

/ramble on
During the Korean ‘Conflict’, when Douglas MacArthur defied Truman’s orders and pushed past the 38th parallel toward the Chinese border, it was perceived by the Chinese as a threat to their autonomy and they retaliated. (BTW, they told DC in advance that they would do so if MacArthur crossed the river).

Sidenote: - The Mao regime was able to establish legitimacy and support because they purported to drive the ‘West’ out of their country. Take ten minutes and look at the horrible things done to China primarily by Britain and the rest of Europe and the US prior to Mao’s rise.

The US initiated the same stupid policy of trade embargo with North Korea as it has with several other non ‘pro-US’ nations and the only thing it has accomplished is that in N. Korea’s case it strengthened the political and economic ties with China (heh, a couple billion people also embargoed until they just couldn’t resist that market), and the needless sufferings of the very people they should be fostering, and in some cases genocide. Insert the incredible atrocities of the Former Yugoslav Republic here.
/ramble off

Pol Pot literally annihilated a third of his country trying to return to the ‘simple times’ of a few hundred years ago (Apparently knowing how to drive was even considered suspect). Yet he rose to power because of the vacuum the US created when we pulled our operations out of Vietnam and Southeast Asia.

I’m on a 26 hour no-sleepathon; I guess I’m not stating this as clear as I should, so let me simply state:

Where did all of the monsters of the past 50 years, the people on your list included get the weapons they used to commit mass murder? Screw Nuclear disarmament, why do the major economic nations of the world still export weapons?

The fact is if a total nutjob like Saddam would not be able to rise and hold power for long if he was not equipped to do so.

Why don’t you go get some sleep.

Huh? Pol Pot founded the Khmer Rouge in 1963.

There’s a difference is founding and party and coming to true power

http://www.geocities.com/iturks/html/red_orror.html

Yeah, I understand that. However, Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge was engaged in genocide long before 1975.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Skordopordonikos *
To generalize the difference between the two - heh to the point of being wrong - is that most Russians knew they were being lied to and were resigned to it; whereas most Americans are either oblivious…

[quote]

I don’t know about this. I recall an article that cited polls taken of Soviet-era citizens and U.S. citizens. It found that Soviet citizens rated their media (newspapers, TV, etc.) as having higher credibility than U.S. citizens rated U.S. media. The Soviets simply had little to compare the media to and heard very little criticism of it. (As an example, the opinions in the OP would have been barred.)

But as far as the government lying, I just read a fascinating piece about a U.S. ship that was sunk off the coast of Maine right at the end of WWII. Despite overwhelming testimony of survivors who saw the U-boat that sank them, the goverment gave an official explanation of a boiler explosion. They continued to stonewall right to this very day. Finally, when faced with overwhelming proof, they relented and awarded the crew the medals they should have gotten back then.

Damn, he avoided my trap. Instead of “stretching the meaning of ‘directly or indirectly’ past the point of all credibility,” he ignored that part in favor of stretching “responsible in training and arming” past the point of any coherency whatsoever. Nice dodge, flame boy.

I always wonder when a “new” poster shows up with their first posts in the Pit.

Given the topic, and the OP admitting he/she/it hid the topic on purpose, I am at full on :rolleyes:.

Also- citing to a geocities page? :dubious:

Well, that did it for me. Pushed me over the line, that OP did. I’m off to defect to Cuba. Anyone coming along?

Completely incorrect. Canada is the leading foreign source of oil for the U.S., followed by Saudi Arabia and Mexico. Russia isn’t even in the top 10.

The implication seems to be the US should withdraw from the affairs of the world. Sorry, that’s not possible. It didn’t work after WWI, and it won’t work now. The world is (and always has been, really) interconnected.

Furthermore, we all share blame of one sort or another for everything that happens, whether it’s you are guilty of 1. polluting because you buy products from companies which pollute or 2. slavery because you buy clothes from companies which operate sweatshops in the Far East or 3. terrorism because you promote an anti-U.S. vision of the world supported by terrorists in which the US is to blame even for the potholes in the sidewalk outside your front door to your house in the shantytown on the hillside on the outskirts of Quito.

Pointing fingers is, well, pointless.

Ha! I flame you with the heat of several E-Z Bake Ovens, left on for about an hour and a half!

The first sentence is horseshit. The rest of it contradicts itself.

If -

Oh, fuck it. I’ll give the hamsters a break.

Clues are in aisle five. Help yourself.

Regards,
Shodan