Flatlining - Is that really the other side?

Great Debates
1

We hear stories of how people were “medically” dead, by flatlining for certain amounts of time, and then were brought back to life. The movie “Flatliners” tried to capture this by having doctors flatline each other, so they could “see the other side”, and then bring them back to tell about it.

But is this really “the other side?” Is death like a doorway between two rooms, and when you die you are immediately in the next room? Or is there a transition “time” before you get there? If so, then the folks that have flatlined and come back did not actually see “the other side”, but rather got a glimpse of “the waiting room to the other side”.

Obviously, no one KNOWS the answer, and opinions will vary greatly, but I’d love to hear people’s thoughts.

Personally, I think there is a transition period, and those who “died” and came back are like a baby that’s head popped out for 23 seconds and then got sucked back in…that baby may have gotten a glimpse, but it certainly didn’t see or experience what we consider LIFE.

2

Suppose you ‘die’ for a period of some minutes, then you are revived after a period of some minutes in which no brain activity is measured - none whatsoever - but on revival, you have memories of things that you experienced in some wondrous ethereal place during that time.
Would this prove that it is possible to experience things when you are dead? I don’t think is would, because there isn’t any way to determine the difference between real memories and false ones - the entire experience could have been constructed in retrospect by your confused waking brain and plonked into your memory as if it had been there as memory of an original experience.

Of course the above argument doesn’t conclusively rule out OOBEs, but it is a fact that the mind can generate spurious memories.

3

Oops; proofreading would have been good; strike out some of those minutes.

4

I’m an atheist, but I can try to look at this with eyes of one who believes in the afterlife.

If I were God, I wouldn’t bother to move people until they’re “for sure” permanently dead. This idea that people who experience near-death visit the afterworld briefly smacks of God making a mistake which sounds like blasphemy.

5

I’m still trying to figure out how exactly to debate this O_o It is like debating the hypothesis of a theological theory of a presumption extrapolated from 2 and a half words.

I guess you would want to start by looking at research into the brain. I mean, not just a little - a lot of it. All the waves that make up thought and decisions and emotions and memories. Dream state. Awake state. Sleep state. Electromagnetic imagery of an active brain versus a dead one versus one in the process of dying and being brought back (good luck).

While I have not seen the movie “Flatliners,” I think it would be safe to presume that the scientific accuracy thereof would be to biology what the movie “Hackers” is to network security, and suggest disregarding it for this debate.

The evidence we have is the first hand memories of individuals who flatlined or almost flatlined (ie, could have, but it wasn’t recorded) and came back to life.

Unfortunately, the research on the brain is just beginning, and even more unfortunately, people are using terms like “quantum psychodynamic electromagnetics,” (I swear to christ, I saw that term) which I think is science-talk for “Um, WTF.” I tried looking up some of the studies and shows I’ve seen, but all I can find in my cursory glance at Google is a bunch of psuedo-science. Fact is, research is still going on into how we dream, things like deja vu, and conscious thought. I don’t think we know enough to make any assumptions (much less conclusions) about what happens to the brain when you die.

(I realize that your question is theological, but bear with me)

I think it is safe to say, though, that dream-time doesn’t necessarily correlate to real-time, so we keep that in mind. An experience that “feels” like hours can happen in a split second - ie, in the time that it takes for your brain to shut off into unconsciousness. It could be impressed when you come back. Or you could believe Freud and say that your subconscious implanted it after you woke up. My hypothesis would be that dying happens just like going unconscious; eg, if you die from blood loss, it would mimic being knocked out from having a vein pinched.

Then on top of all the science and psuedo-science, you have to go and throw in theology. That would probably be the biggest debate point, and I think the heart of your question.

As a theological question, the main answer you’ll get is that no one knows. O_o Depends if you believe in a soul, or heaven as a physical place, or what. You appear to follow the modern Western concept - that is, you die, you “go” down the tunnel to the white light and into Heaven. An atheist (and some theists) would say it is just like being knocked out - nothing. That is somewhat hard to comprehend for some people, though.

Personally? I believe that you enter a dream-like state for infinity amount of (subjective) time in the time before your brain shuts off, essentially trapped inside how you lived your life. Do I have any evidence for that? Hell no, but it is a hypothesis I can accept and lets me sleep at night, and it is as good as anything else I’ve heard.

For the record, there have been numerous instances of insane scientists slaughtering dozens of animals trying to do things like weigh the soul leaving upon death. None, to my knowledge, have reached conclusions supporting anything.

6

There’s an unsubstantiated claim that the pineal gland releases DMT during death, and that death feels like an overly intense DMT experience. But I haven’t read anything on this from a verified source. So, a pinch of salt.

7

Hm, interesting. Great, now when I die, the last thing I’ll think is “Hm, the DMT should be kicking in about now.” Without researching the topic at all and speaking entirely out of assumptions, I would ask the question if the DMT is released in reaction to the brain feeling threatened - either an overabundance of pain or loss of oxygen supply, because I don’t know of any physical other way for the body to “know” it is dying. In which case, the whole thing makes a terrible lot of sense, and I would whole heartedly endorse it. Nice to know there is SOMETHING to look forward to on death, even if it is a nice little acid trip.

Sadly enough, I think there is just enough scientist in me to be a little disappointed that we can’t do experiments with live human subjects to find out what happens when people die :wink: Good thing I’m a lib arts guy!

You raise an interesting point, from a Christian view. While I generally reject most of Freud, I do think there may be something to the subconscious imposing a false memory in a case of extreme trauma (which I think it is safe to say, death qualifies for). For someone who expected to see the bright white light or a relative, it may be implanted. On the other hand, the light could just be a visual effect from trauma to the brain, like the spots of light when you hold your breath for too long, and the relative visions could easily be dreams.

It would be curious to see a study of near-death experience reports, comparing and contrasting the experiences of atheists and Christians (or another religious group, though I am not as familiar with their lore).

In any event, I think it is safe to say - I need more cranberry juice O_o

8

This has been debated here numerous times, and I choose not to get into again. I will point out, however, that we don’t just “hear stories” about near death experiences (NDEs). This is a phenomenon that has been well documented and studied for the past 30 years or so. Personally, I believe that NDEs are solid proof of an afterlife. MMV for avowed skeptics.

The following website is a very good source for information on the subject.

www.iands.org

9

For that matter, it would be curious to see how the brain behaved between various methods of death. As I understand it, most death is from loss of oxygen/blood to the brain, massive trauma or destruction of brain matter (AKA, ouch)… maybe some form of electric shock that passed through the brain (though if I understand right, most of that is causing the heart to fail and falls under loss of oxygen/blood)… organ/tissue failure and toxins?

Man, this stuff is fascinating. I remember my first molecular cell biology class where the prof “passed around” a brain and half the students freaked out. Mwuhaha. I want to know how that damn thing works, since I go to so much trouble to keep it going. Grr.

10

I think most of that can be experienced on popular drugs O_o and maybe a little Freudian subconscious work.

I always find curious the concept of retaining the phsyical senses and floating. One would hope that, at the very least, leaving behind the physical restraints of the body would let you see the infrared spectrum or something. :-p

11

I would say you had a point, except the “memories” you speak of as being false are not memories the person had before death. Many times they are new experiences shown to happen during death. There are hundreds of examples of this in NDE literature.

Here’s one: http://ndeweb.com/FAQz05.htm

Love

12

I have been researching near death experiences for 15 years, and can tell you a little about them. I don’t claim to know everything about NDEs.

The beliefs of an individual do put a spin on their experiences, but not a large one. Atheists are accepted into the light as quickly as theists. The main emotion is love, unconditional love. However, Christians are more likely to see “Jesus”, while atheists see only a being surrounded by light.

Each experience is personal and unique for each individual, but result in changing them for the better.

It is an interesting study.

Love

13

As I implied above, I believe that this type of evidence fits into a pure physiological explanation as well as anything else. The instance of a bright light seems to conform to images people frequently get from trauma to the head, lack of oxygen, etc, and euphoric feelings are often present as a natural response to heavy trauma as an anti-panic and nerve deadening device (as happens when, say, you cut off your hand).

I would expect a similar experience to happen from someone partaking of a substance like peyote and suffering loss of consciousness, with a subconscious filter placed on the memory. I don’t hesitate to say that I have had similar effects with a number of substances and situations, so I don’t find it a stretch to imagine it happening naturally, and a NDE certainly qualifies as a terribly psychological trauma with its own effects. For instance, victims of a PTS disorder frequently have memories either altered or created from nothing to explain an event, as do schizophrenics. The brain is a powerful device.

I bet. Sounds fascinating.

14

Remember that the “moment of death” is a judgement call made by a doctor in most situations. When I run codes (and I do so fairly often), I don’t make that call until I’m sure that I’m not getting the patient back after giving it a good shot, I’ve contacted the patient’s attending physician and any family he or she may have nearby, and no one else on the code team has any objection. Clearly, then, I’m not recognizing some distinct physiologic “point”–often, the patient is as dead as he or she is going to get when they call the code in the first place.

Getting someone back from a “flatline” (asystole) is not even that unusual. I can think of two or three people who I got back into a rhythm from asystole in the last several months. They don’t usually survive the code afterwards, and the majority of those who do don’t make it out of the hospital, but it happens.

15

There has been more than 30 years of research into death and dying, most notably by Dr. Elizabeth Keubler-Ross and others. This includes near death experiences and other similar experiences. The evidence from these studies show the brain to be the servant of the Mind, Psyche, Spirit, which continues to live on after the death of the brain.

Many have tried, but to date there is no biological evidence of memory residing in the brain, or thoughts, or any other items relating to “mind.”

Love

16

Originally posted my Mangetout:

Noone has ever come back to life after being brain dead or at least I guess you could say if their body was still technically alive, once the brain completely ceases all activity and becomes brain dead there is no coming back from that, as far as the brain resuming activity.

At least this is what I have read before. In all those near-death experiences there is still brain activity happening in the person.

17

Complete bull.

Here are more cites than you can shake a stick at. Some may not apply, but I’ve perused several in a few minutes that certainly do apply.

This one alone seems to refute your last statement regarding “no biological evidence of memory residing in the brain.”

18

Memory certainly has been “proven” to reside in the brain. In fact, I can simulate a memory using artificial neurons on my computer!

19

I was not suggesting they were - please read my post again - I was suggesting they might be false memories generated during resuscitation, false memories of events that seem to have happened while the patient was ‘dead’, without anything having actually been experienced during that time.

20

I read your refutation and nowhere did it say biological memory had been discovered. Actually it was a beginning study on the theory of the way the brain handles memory.

No two brains are alike, but brain cells are alike, if memory was stored anywhere in them it would be easy to see. I have read estimates that it would take a brain the size of a watermellon to store just one day’s record of human life, given what we know about storage. Think about it. I know we are always hearing how certain functions are stored or conducted from a certain part of the brain.
These claims are good only for the individual brain being discussed. We are not hard wired as some would lead us to believe. When one portion of the brain is damaged, other portions can and do take over the job of the damaged part. This clearly indicates an intelligence greater than the brain itself.

Brain mapping is a frustrating, and impossible chore. We are not our brains, or our bodies, and in a few more years it will be shown clearly.

http://ndeweb.com/FAQz23.htm

The above link and the link from it shows what I mean. I am sorry you have been mislead, but there is no biological memory in the brain.

Love