Flight 93 question.

But a telemarketer is not going to have someone monitor his conversation with the person at the next desk.

If the pilots were turely negligent, the NTSB would damn them to the 7th level of hell. As it is, they almost always seem to place at least some blame on the pilot (who, after all, is legally responsible for the condition of his aircraft and its operation).

Indeed. Some people see tragedy as hitting the lottery. Or they are so blinded by rage at the loss of a loved one, they don’t care who’s at fault just so somebody pays.

The transcripts are made public.

Fox news last night said something about there being screams, etc. on this recording, so maybe that’s part of it; they feel it might be too gruesome and/or personal. (Not saying I agree)

The other possibility is that there is something on there that the spooks don’t want out: i.e. one of the terrorists says the name of X, implicating him … but X has no idea he’s under suspicion, and the CIA just wants to watch him for now. One can think of several such scenarios. (Keep in mind that some in intelligence believe that not all of the hijackers knew the full plan. i.e. “So I guard the passengers while Achmed flies the plane to Mexico, right?” If that was the case, more possibilities emerge.)

furt:

FWIW I don’t disagree that the CVR should stay secret while an investigation is under way. It only makes sense. You don’t need or want a bunch of groups with different agendas muddying the water. However, once the investigation is complete I think the CVR should become a matter of public record. Besides, if they publish a transcript of everything said why keep the CVR secret? Ok, it may be a little morbid listening in on the final moments of various people but should someone else wish to investigate the accident they should be allowed to do so. Who knows, someone else might turn something up. It wouldn’t be the first time a private group uncovered evidence that turned an ‘official’ ruling on its head.

I think one of the main reasons why they don’t release the tape is so that it doesn’t start a feeding frenzy by families and trial attorneys. For instance, the NTSB may determine that the ‘proximate cause’ of a crash is wing icing, but what if the CVR contains a pilot conversation something like, “So, Bob - I was telling maintenance to get this flap handle repaired, but they haven’t done it yet”. The flap may have had nothing to do with it, but would a jury buy that? For this reason, every person listening to the Flight 93 tape had to sign a waiver stating that they would not use any information on the tape as a basis to sue the government or the airline.

I don’t know about the legal status of releasing CVR’s - unless it’s a new law it can’t be illegal, because I’ve heard lots of them, most of them domestic, too. The air disaster site has six or seven domestic CVR recordings online.

Most of the recordings I’ve heard aren’t all THAT dramatic. You don’t generally hear screams, sobbing, praying, etc. Usually all you hear is chatter between the pilot and co-pilot running through emergency checklists and trying everything they know to keep the airplane flying right up until the moment of impact. Usually just before that you’ll hear someone say, “Shit!”, or “Oh, god”, or “We’re going down”. Pilots are generally a pretty cool lot, and that carries over into emergencies.

Way back when, when cockpit voice recorders were first proposed, the deal cut between the pilots and the government was that the recordings would be **only[/b for accident investigations, they would never be made part public.

In other words, in part this is a matter of keeping a promise. Not that anyone expects the government to ever keep its promises any more, but I think this was all back in the naive 1950’s

Yes, there was (and is) concern over “stupid pilot tricks” and litigation".

However, there are some reasons that ARE legimate if you believe pilots are actual live human beings. When someone knows they are about to die they may react in a manner that is… um… embarassing either to themselves or their relatives. I mean, you might just as well argue that morgue photos should be printed on the front page of the newspaper of mangled bodies pulled from car wrecks, with a close up of the bodily waste a dying body unloads into its undewear. I mean, why should someone having an accident on a public road have any expectation of privacy? Maybe if the public could examine this incidents more closely they might discover something vital that could prevent future accidents. It should be a matter of public record!

Pilots about to die may remain calm until the end (and this is probably the most common reaction) … or they may scream, cry, pray, plead with God for their lives… Please tell me what is to be gained by putting such final moments on display? What is to be gained by broadcasting such a tape on the evening news (which is where this argument of “public record” leads eventually) except to cause intense pain to relatives and friends of the deceased? And provide lawsuit-happy lawyers with ammunition.

There are also aspects of aviation that are very hard for the non-pilot public to understand. For instance, JFK, Jr. had very modern and up-to-date instruments on his airplane… but not the training to really use them as sole means of navigation. His instruments were telling him what was wrong - but he wasn’t able to heed what they were saying. How you could get into this situation, and the difficulty of even recognizing that you are in trouble, is well known to pilots - but very hard for the non-pilot to comprehend. Yes, you can be completely upside-down in an airplane and have no clue that you’re upside-down relative to the ground. (Fortunately, this is not a common occurance!) So some conversations in the cockpit in those final moments might either be incomprehensible, puzzling, or bizarre to the common sense of the general public. Again, would the public interest truly be served by broadcasting such things?

As an aside regarding “last words” heard on TV - some sources are, indeed, from foreign agencies or airlines. But if you listen closely you’ll realize that a lot of them from the US are actually air traffic control tapes. All air traffic communications in this country are recorded as a matter of course. One famous audio tape of the Sioux City Iowa flight, for instance - where the controller says “You are cleared for any runway” and the captain says "Oh, you’re going to get picky and insist on a runway - is not a CVR tape, it’s an air traffic control tape. Since the last moments of pilots frequently involve radio transmissions there is often considerable overlap between the two tapes.

Now, I think there may, from time to time, be a legitimate reason to release the actual audio of a CVR - but I do NOT think that should be standard practice any more than showing pictures of people actually dying in various accidents (car crash, house fire, etc) should be a staple of the evening news. Simply gratifying the public’s instaitiable desire for new thrills is NOT a valid reason for displaying the last moments of a human life.

Completely unrelated to the OP, but…

This story was related to me in the 1980s. I don’t know when it took place. I also don’t know if it is true, or just a lot of propwash.

In instructor and a student were flying in a T-38 Talon between two layers of overcast (overcast and undercast). The student was pulling back on the stick and couldn’t understand how his altimeter could be unwinding. It turns out (so the story goes) that the instructor had inverted the aircraft without the student’s knowledge and set it up in an inverted 1g dive between the could layers. The student was receiving visual cues that he was climbing, but the instruments were showing a rapid descent.

Whether the student is true or not, it illustrates that spatial disorientation can occur even when the air you’re flying in is clear.

I’m just curious here.

Other than simple, morbid curiousity, why would anybody give a rat’s ass if they available to the public or not, if you have no involvement with a crash? I never found it to be all that pleasurable, but rather horrific, to listen to a persons last words even when they were directed at me. A persons dying words are for privileged few, if any, not the general public. It’s much different than using company resources to violate policy.

Turbo Dog, I’m with you on this - I have no idea why this is so appealing to so many people. But then you had a whole series of videos - Faces of Death - claiming to be the actual deaths of people caught on film. And those gruesome shows on TV from time to time. And the idiots who were upset because a lot of footage of burning people falling (or jumping) out of the World Trade Center last September never got aired.

The only thing I can think is that for a certain number of folks seeing a stranger die on tape just isn’t real on a certain level. Or maybe they haven’t faced the ugly reality of the death of a loved one, friend, or even aquaintance up close and personal.

On the other hand, I’ve showed up at an airport to fly and seen charred, yard-high chunks of airplane stuck in the concrete of a runway after a crash. I’ve seen a friend’s airplanes lying in pieces in a hangar and no sign of the friend. Twice in the last year - and the second time all too recently - I’ve seen the remains of an airplane I know by sight lying in pieces in a hangar, parts still stained with the blood of someone I know. I’ve heard voices on the radio on the ragged edge of panic because they are in deep doo-doo and heading groundward. I’ve heard a radio call of someone in tears telling pilots that an airport is closed because someone just crashed there. These are not abstractions to me.

I can only think the voyeurs do not comprehend that this is NOT a special effect - it is real fear, real blood, real pain, real broken bones, real death.

And, as someone who has had a genuine emergency or two, who has actually experienced a half dozen things going wrong in just a second or two and having maybe as long as that to react, to make the correct choice the first time (because there will be no time for a second) – no, I do not want this sort of thing ever broadcast to the world at large. On the flight I realized I was not going to make it back to an airport and picked out a field, hoping to God there were no low power lines, hidden ditches, barbed wire fences, or (please, God, no) people out in that patch of real estate, hoping that I would have enough room to stop before colliding with a house, fulling expecting to total the airplane and just hoping that either I could walk away or not be too injured to dial my cellphone when everything stopped moving - I freely admit I was shaking all over, swearing, and alternating between racking sobs and hysterical laughter. I’m sure a tape of that episode would have been very unsettling to listen to. Yet - I still flew the airplane to a successful landing. The flying was to my credit - but what I was saying would give entirely the wrong impression of what was actually happening (the most skillful landing of my life). The thing was - I knew no one would ever hear those few minutes so I did not concern myself with “editing” my vocal reactions. If screaming could relieve some tension and enable me to function better there was no inhibition against doing so.

And that, by the way, is why they have BOTH a flight data recorder and a CVR - because what you hear isn’t always the most important thing going on.

I can handle the idea of investigators trying to glean information from the last seconds of my life. I can handle the idea of a relative or friend listening in, if they choose to do so. But when the general public starts demanding to hear such things I can only think that it’s some sick form of entertainment. I’m not sure I can adquately express my feelings about some sick [expletive deleted] who would regard my death as an amusing diversion. As a sound bite on the nightly news in between attempts to sell cornflakes and hemorrhoid cream.

I, for one, have zero interest in actually hearing the last words of anyone ever again.

I think it is disingenuous to suggest that the only possible use publically available CVRs is for entertainment purposes. I’ll allow that a CVR may be used in this fashion but that’s the price of freedom and openness.

For my money I’ve never found secrecy to be a particularly beneficial thing to the public as regards our government. For secrecy to be truly a good thing in the dissemination of CVR recordings you have to buy the notion that the NTSB is infallible, utterly free of corruption and completely unbiased.

Flying a plane is not a right you or anyone else possesses. If you don’t like the notion of having your every word recorded for potential release at another time then don’t pilot a plane. If I go to get a job as an FBI agent they will do a thorough background check on me. If I don’t want my past dirty laundry aired out I won’t try for that job. Not public you say? Fine, try running for public office…especially President…to get every niggly detail of your life held up for public inspection. These are just a few examples of ways your privacy can be invaded yet still be found acceptable.

I agree wholeheartedly that the plaitiff attorneys run amok when they see a big accident. Stupid juries don’t help the matter. To me, however, that argues for tort reform and not as a reson to keep CVRs secret. Some plaintiff cases are legitimate and the company(s) that were negligent should be smacked upside the head. You don’t have to look very far back in US history from before large liability suits to see how unconcerned companies could be with consumer safety. Liability suits may be out of hand today but they have also served to make cars, airplanes, toasters and whatever else you like considerably safer. Anything that helps a corporation hide from its responsibilities is therefore not a good thing in my view. Keeping CVRs secret is just one such dodge that I don’t find reasonably supportable.

It’s not a matter of EITHER completely secret OR completely open.

No, the NTSB is not infallible - but it is not a bunch of knee-jerk analysts, either. Nowhere did I say I was totally opposed to a limited release of information - but I do insist that such information only be released to parties with a real, legitimate interest in the source material, not just any yokel who comes along.

We don’t allow just anyone with a curious bent to observe autopsies, do we? We don’t release morgue photos to the public, do we? Even when such things involve murder investigations. Unauthorized relase of such things can result in prosecution.

“Legitimate interested parties”, to my mind, mean relatives, possibly friends, investigators (NTSB and others, but with proof of credentials) and possibly juries and judges in trial (it can be, after all, evidence of wrongdoing). It does NOT include broadcasting the last minutes of someone’s life on network or cable TV, nor does it include selling such things on CD. Unless you are a genuine investigator you can just be happy with the transcripts - the information is there, after all. YOUR curiousity does not justify release of CVR, any more than it justifies posting nude photos of politicians on the Internet {{{shudder}}}, or a release of a security tape from a Seven Eleven hold up that shows a shotgun blast ripping apart a cashier’s head into bloody gobbets as the remainder of the body dances a brief jig before crashing to the floor. Just be effing happy the newsies report the transcript of the plane crash, the fact the President got head in the Oval office, and some bad@$$ hoodlum blew away the grandfather working nightshift at the local convenience store. There is a lot of stuff you have a right to know about but not a right to directly see, hear, smell, or taste.

Mind you, pilots who fly the big jets know they are being recorded, it’s no secret. That doesn’t mean they like it, or desire it, any more than they enjoy random drug tests. But, since pilots are apparently not entitled to privacy we should video tape them peeing into a cup and broadcast THAT to reassure the public that they are, indeed, being tested for drugs.

And, in fact, it is a double standard, because ONLY the pilots of big jets have CVR’s - private pilots do not suffer that indignity (at least not yet).

But ask yourself this - would you like to have a CVR installed in your car? A black box to record how you drive perhaps? To be used against you in a court of law should you have an accident, or your last screams as you are crushed between two semi-trucks played over the evening news as an interesting soundbite? Maybe a gasping plea for help that never comes? Would that be fair, right, and equitable? Because, after all, driving a car is not a right you or anyone else possesses. Nor do you have a right to privacy while using a public thoroughfare - if you don’t like it, don’t drive. Oh, what was that, you have to drive to do your job? Did anyone force you to pick a job beyond walking distance from your home? No? Guess you willingly choose to drive and you’ll just have to suck it up and learn to love being spied on.

I do not object to real investigators - be they NTSB, FBI, or even more local oufits - listening to CVR’s. It’s like an autopsy - a necessary evil. But, again, releasing a CVR tape to the general public is nothing more than a sick form of entertainment.

I get little tired of pilots being the whipping boy, and it’s certainly due in part to September 11. Too many can’t attack the REAL culprits, so they vent on pilots who had nothing to do with that obscenity. Pilots ARE human beings, with the same rights to privacy and yes, dignity, as any other citizen. The fact that our society has become tolerant of unwarranted invasions of privacy does NOT make those invasions any less repugnant - or any more justified.

While I understand your frustration, I have never heard anyone say anything disparaging about the pilots of those hijacked planes. Likewise, I have heard very few negative comments about pilots in general. As a profession, I think they are very well respected.

No relatives of mine were on Flight 93. I have no claim or interest in a lawsuit vs. the airline, pilot, or anyone else.

However, as a citizen of the U.S., I DO have an interest in what my govt. is doing. So I am opposed to secrecy unless it’s ABSOLUTELY necessary. Thus, it troubles me when a govt. agency (FBI, NTSB) examines something of this magnitude and of this much interest to the public (and, let’s be honest–this is an order of magnitude different than, say, a car crash, which others here were trying to compare it to, and the public has a greater right to information about it) and doesn’t allow the public access to the data for third-party verification.

I would like to see a third party analyze the data eventually as a check against the honesty of my own govt. I think it’s entirely plausible that the USAF did indeed shoot down flight 93, and the govt. is covering it up b/c they learned, soon after, that the passengers attempted to take back the plane. It would look pretty crappy if the govt.'s prudent act (shooting down the hijacked plane) effectively negated the heroism of those passengers. But as a citizen, I want to know the truth. Likewise, I’m not convinced that the flight that came down in Queens was not bombed. I would like to see independent verification, and have third parties be able to examine all of the surveillance tapes, go through eyewitness accounts, etc.

Does there remain anything resembling a General Question here?

Gee, I dunno, manhattan, I think it may have evolved into a discussion.

toadspittle, I have absolutely no objections to impartial third parties examining crash evidence. What I do object to is the notion that the last moments of human life are somehow general property of the public at large. Legitimate investigators, yes - and that might mean a group formed solely for the purpose of investigating a particular circumstance by interested citizens - but never, never as some sort of voyeuristic newspornography.

As for the idea the US military shot down Flight 93 - their performance during the rest of that day wasn’t too impressive as far as interception goes, why should that flight be any different? Much of the “shot down” theory relies on sighting of another plane in the vicinity - which there was. But it was a business jet that air traffic control asked to fly over the crash site to confirm its location, not a military jet. How do we know this is true? Well, for one thing, we have the conversation between ATC and the jet in question on tape. We have the testimony of the controller and the jet’s pilots. And asking a nearby plane to confirm that a crash has occurred and its location is not an unusual request. Saves time in getting emergency personnel to the scene if they know exactly where it is.

The flight that went down in Queens – not so much bombing as sabotage. That tail fin broke off entirely too cleanly - something commented on by many people as soon as the vertical stabilizer was raised from the water. Yes, composites fail, and turbulence can damage planes, but that sort of failure is entirely unprecedented in aviation. It’s not the sort of damage an explosion does, it looks more like the tail piece was sliced off by a very sharp knife. Is it sabotage? I dunno - a weird material failure is also possible. I’d say investigate all possibilities.

Sigene, perhaps you have not heard disparaging remarks about pilots but I have. I do, after all, work in Chicago, a city with a mayor who is quite vocal about his dislike of airplanes and pilots. Mayor Daley is on record as stating that only airline pilots and the military should be permitted to fly - it’s not something that should be open to just anybody (like me, I guess) So, by his reckoning I’m good enough to live in his city, work in his city, drive in his city, and pay taxes in his city but I can’t be trusted to fly over his city - or even near it. Several states are trying to pass legislation that would require an FBI background check of all student and pilots currently flying - so wonderful to know my government trusts me. Good lord, I’m so squeaky clean I’ve never even tried pot, never had even so much as a parking ticket, and actually drive the speed limit, but suddenly I’m presumed guilty instead of innocent. There have been calls to impose the same security on the small-scale pilot as on the airlines, including walking through metal detectors and being searched prior to boarding a two-seat airplane that goes slower than most cars on the road can - cripes, what am I going to do, hijack myself?.

(Also will make carrying my down-in-a-field-somewhere survival kit problematic, since it contains a knife and tweezers to remove splinters, not to mention a couple firestarters, but hey, I guess it’s OK for me to freeze to death in a field somewhere as long as the country is protected from those dangerous people out there somewhere.)

There IS a crowd out there who feels there is no room for the common person to fly. While I will defend their right to hold whatever opinion they choose, I can’t possibly agree with it.

The government does NOT respect pilots, yet we have to deal with it everyday. Among the insanity that has occured since September 11 - ordering us to stay away from all nuclear plants, but then refusing to tell us where those plants are located! (yes, this really happened) “Stay away from my boojum - and no, I won’t tell you where it is, but if you get too close I’ll hurt you whether you know it’s there or not”

Yes, I’m frustrated. Flying these days can be like going down the interstate expecting smokey the bear to pull you over - except smoky now has authorization to shoot to kill. Not that that has happened, but it could. For a couple months there everyone was pretty jumpy.

Geez, Broomstick, where were you when I was bemoaning the encroachments on our Fourth Amendment protections agains unreasonable searches? :wink:
Do you remember back in the 1980s when the government proposed that aircraft that failed to land at Customs and were suspected of carrying drugs be shot down? :eek: I have a Bob Stevens* “How We See It” cartoon from a 1988 issue of AOPA Pilot showing a GA aircraft being just missed by missiles and bullets from a Customs interceptor. At the top is “NEWS ITEM: The National Drug Policy Board proposes to allow Customs and Coast Guard to shoot at aircraft suspected of carrying drugs…” The caption shows the pilot of the GA aircraft saying, “Quick, jettison the aspirin!”

This has nothing to do with being able to listen to CVR tapes, but it seemed somehow germain to your comments.

What many people seem to be missing is that the transcripts are released. It’s just the actual voices we can’t hear.

*[sub]Bob Stevens is a name well known to pilots.[/sub]

Remember when that missionary plane was shot down in South America last year and there was much weeping and wailing about their innocence and the semi-indirect American involvement?

Now folks are apparently OK with the concept of the American military gunning down our own citizens over our own soil. All in the name of homeland security, of course, and if you dare to question that you are a traitor (or whatever) and should be in Gitmo.

Two hypocrisies here - one, that somehow South Americans don’t have the same right to defend their borders that we reserve for ourselves. And two, if it was wrong then for them, then it should also be wrong now and for us.

I agree.

This thread is closed. Those wishing to continue the discussion are of course free to open a thread in the appropriate forum.