That’s what I wonder too. How hard can it be for a parent to physically restrain a toddler and buckle them in? I’m picturing the parent using endless verbal coaxing but not actually just doing the deed.
That was probably the biggest factor.
But there well be more to the story – that article is a bit sloppy. For one thing, they show a picture of a Porter Airlines Q400 Dash-8 – that’s the most common aircraft in their fleet – but according to FlightAware the actual plane was an Embraer ERJ-190-400 twin jet. For a non-stop flight from YYJ to YYZ, a jet is more reasonable.
For another thing, while it’s common for airports to stop normal operations late at night due to noise regulations, 12:30 AM seems like an odd cutoff. From what I could find, YYJ shuts down most normal operations at 1:00 AM but the control tower remains staffed until 4:00 AM. There may be some additional noise abatement regulations that dictated the 12:30 cutoff. Still, as the normal departure time of that flight is a little after 10:30 PM it seems like an awfully long time to kick off the brat and its parent(s) and their luggage.
Indeed. Sit the little brat down and buckle them in, and if they keep shrieking stuff a napkin in their mouth. Problem solved in seconds!
I can’t help but think there’s more to this story than has been reported.
Maybe, but if a kid is over 2 they can not sit on their parents lap and it could be very difficult / impossible to restrain a kid on their own seat while the parent and cabin crew are also strapped down in a way that does not class as abuse.
On a more macro level, this incident sounds like the logical culmination of the permissive-parenting ethos/culture of recent decades. The kid is king.
I was on a plane on which someone with already-loaded bags did not show up for the flight, after waiting whatever the courtesy grace period was. So I got to look out the window an watch every fricking bag being taken off the plane and then replaced, after they found what they were looking for.
Took forever, and the flight attendants came around with drinks, including alcoholic ones for First Class.
There’s a difference between a tantrum and a meltdown. A tantrum stops when the kid gets what he wants. With a meltdown, the kid is overloaded, and can’t stop, and doesn’t know what he wants. I remember having a single one as a child, but I probably had others. The boychik had them, and the only thing that snapped him back was to put him in a warm (but not too warm) bath.
Either way, though, the kid needed to be removed from that environment.
I think it’s also worth considering that this might not be a bratty five year old. For all we know it could be a 200# 6’ tall autistic teenager pacing the aisle because he’s upset about something or scared to fly or whatever and isn’t going to be wrestled back into his seat.
Would “standing in their seat” as per the airline’s statement usually mean “standing between their row and the next one, but not sitting down” or “standing on their seat”?
I interpreted that to mean the child standing with their feet on the seat where your butt would normally go. Not standing on the floor. An article link posted upthread said that it was a toddler. No doubt there will be more coverage today.
You have to admit this would be a very clever terrorist plot… I can imagine the movie with a young (er) Bruce Willis saving the day.
Porter is a Canadian airline and this flight was in Canada. So the following may not be exactly per Canadian regulations.
For US carriers, it is rarely required to remove luggage of people who are being removed or who are missing the flight for whatever reason. Back immediately post 9/11 the rules were created such that bag removal was always required. That has not been true for about 20 years now.
There are still circumstances nowadays where a bag pull is required. And there are many many more circumstances where it is not. Had that been a US domestic flight between two US cities, it’s virtually a certainty the bag pull would not be required.
ISTM the Captain failed in not immediately returning to the gate as it became evident the parents could not / would not control the child. They knew, or should have known, that this would snowball into a long delay that would get tight, or past, the departure curfew. Some combo of passivity about customer issues that many pilots wrongly consider “not their problem”, and wishful thinking creates another crisis.
I forgot that part by the time I wrote my post. Yeah, a small kid standing ON their seat is probably what’s going on. With that being said, I am surprised the parent’s couldn’t get the kid buckled in, at least for long enough to get the plane in the air.
Maybe his protests were too repetitive?
Like most here I think, I found it outrageous at first but on googling some of the key facts it’s not that crazy a situation (though I bet the other passengers were suitably pissed off).
Every day approx 300 people are removed from flights pre-takeoff due to behaviour, illness or drunkenness. It’s a surprisingly low number when you think about it, but does mean that late takeoffs due to passenger circumstances happens all over the world every day. And if the delay pushes past the time the runway can be used…shrug emoji, nothing to be done.
And I don’t think the time window was that big. Aside from all the complexity with throwing someone off a flight as already mentioned, I don’t know if you guys are luckier than me, but it’s rare for me for a flight to take off in less than 20 mins past the advertized takeoff time. And my last 2 flights were more than 40 mins taxiing and waiting.
For this late evening flight I don’t think the kid has to add much time before they miss the window of comfort, and flights are all about erring on the side of caution.
I flew Porter from Newark to Toronto last month. The guy directly in front of me was having an unfortunate episode and couldn’t stop shaking or keeping still in his seat. The flight attendants were amazingly professional and offered him a few options. In about 15 minutes on the tarmac, they convinced him that he couldn’t fly. The plane went back, he was escorted off, and we were on our way. We only arrived about 30 minutes late to Toronto (which is only about a 60-minute flight). No idea if he had bags checked in.
One passenger said, “They just kept hiding under their seat. If they got forced into [being] strapped in, they just kind of slid out underneath.”
I still don’t understand why the parent can’t strap in the toddler, then grab them so that they can’t slide underneath. Physically hold them in place for taxiing and takeoff. The adult must have ten times the strength of the toddler.
Are you a parent?
Oh puh-leese.
We may not all be parents, but we’ve all been toddlers. Sanewashing this doesn’t work.
You were right the first time: it is outrageous. AND crazy.
Sure flights get delayed or canceled, but a toddler holding a planeful of people hostage because their parents can’t make them sit down for 15 minutes? That’s outrageous and crazy.
As a coworker used to say, “That’s like trying to drive a car by just honking the horn. You need to grab the steering wheel!”
So assume this kid is a rambunctious & strong 3 year old. Assume the parent was a not particularly strong person. Remember the parent would have to remain buckled into their seat and reach over to hold the toddler buckled in their seat, - it’s not like the parent can stand up, or kneel down in front of their seat. So the parent cannot use much/any body weight leverage, they’re holding the kid down strictly with arm strength. I can absolutely see a 3 year old who is fighting that with every bit of strength being able to evade the parents efforts to hold them down.
That’s why Mighty Mouse asked “have you ever been a parent”? If you’ve never tried to physically hold, carry, etc. a toddler resisting with all their strength, you have no idea how difficult it can actually be. Doing it while you yourself must remain seated & buckled makes it 10 times harder.
Sorry, why would the parent have to remain buckled? Thats silly. Once it’s clear this is becoming a thing that is taking a while and actually holding up the flight, unbuckle, stand up in front of them, and hold the kid in the seat to strap them in. Then buckle yourself back in.