flight simulator for pilot in training

Hi -

I started taking flying lessons a few weeks ago, and today it occured to me that I might be able to save a lot of time (and money!) by getting a hold of a flight simulator to help with learning to fly. I am currently looking at Microsofts Flight Simulator 2004, and it seems pretty detailed (to the extent that it even has interactive ATC mentioning departure frequencies and squawk!).

So does anyone have any recommendations as to 1) whether it’s even worth it 2) if so, is MSFS2004 a good move and if not, which product is recommended?

It’s just that I can pour over the books and memorize procedures until I’m blue in the face, but with only 1-1.5 hours of real flying time a week, I’m thinking it might be worthwhile to practice on a simulator.

I realize that nothing can replace actual time in the air - but there are a lot of things that I think may be able to be learned (or at least, the majority of the learning curve could be overcome) ahead of time without having to pay $100/hr for a plane and $40/hr for an instructor.

As a helicopter and fixed-wing pilot, it’s my opinion that a desk-top simluator cannot replace the real thing when it comes to learning to fly. Beisdes, you’re required to spend a minimum of 40 hours in an actual aircaft.

FWIW, I was only able to spend 1.0 to 1.5 hours a week when I learned to fly airplanes. Although my instructor deemed me ready to take the flight test, I still had to make an extra cross-country so that I would meet the 40 hour minumum.

I found it useful at first when I had to learn all my checks. It’s also nice practicing VORs and NDBs.

But other than that… Even including that, it’s still just a game.

In my experience over the course of 800 flight hours as an instructor, my opinion is that a simulator for primary training is only going to be of minimal help.

There are really only a couple areas where a sim would come in handy, and they have more to do with an instrument rating than primary training. Sims are good for teaching yourself about instruments, and I would recommend that as a good thing for saving on instruction time - but only if you already have a basic grasp of the functions of those instruments to begin with. Otherwise you end up confusing yourself, and the instructor has to help you un-learn bad habits.

A sim could also come in handy for cementing some procedures in your head, but you could accomplish at least as much by sitting in the plane without the engine (and thus the hobbes meter) running. And sitting in the actual plane would still be better, because you would be able to physically reach for controls.

At this point in your training, the focus is mostly on gaining the basic physical skills of controlling the airplane. If you want to buy a flight simulator for fun, go for it, but it likely won’t help a whhole lot with flying until you are looking for the instrument rating.

I realize there is the 40 hr minimum, but considering that most people end up needing more then that (60 hours or so, from what I hear), I’m thinking that if I can reduce that time by 5-10 hours by using a simulator during the week, it’d be worth it.

The things I’m thinking the simulator could help with is the visual references regarding attitude during manuevers. For example, right now I still haven’t quite got the knack for knowing exactly where the horizon should be in relation to the nose of the airplane for straight and level flight, and I end up checking the instruments to double check and see if I’m level. I want to progress past that point faster so that it’s not an issue when I’m paying for real-time airplane use, and I dont spend an extra 15-20 minutes every session practicing the manuever several times to get it right.

I realize that some skills mature over time and eventually they aren’t as issue as I get more experience, but if a simulator can get me to where I practice it once per session and get it right the first time instead of doing it 3 times, then I’ve saved myself 15 minutes, which can then be used for practicing other things.

A few years ago when I was flying RC planes, I had a hard time getting landings down good, so I got an RC simulator and practiced on that. After that I practiced upside down flight and other manuevers on the simulator and found that it really helped in real life. Granted, the RC simulator had it’s limitations (17 inch field of view, etc) - but I was thinking that a simulator for a real plane might provide some of the same benefits.

I think the only way it could be useful is when it’s used for practicing some instrument flying. I had played Flight Simulators for a couple years before I took flying lessons. It makes you concentrate too much on the instruments and not enough outiside on the horizon (which is critical in VFR flight). That’s at least what my instructor told me, as I had to adjust somewhat. So it’s really only worth buying if you really like flying on a computer screen as a game.

I guess I got beat by the real pilots. Anyway, definitely do not buy a simulator for practicing what you mentioned. This is what I had problems with (as I mentioned) and the simulator is going to be different regarding the nose of the airplane and the horizon. At least in my experience, the simulator visual references aren’t anything like the real thing with regard to the nose attitude and the horizon. Also remember that’s it’s easier to learn from nothing than to unlearn bad habits and learn again.

Thanks for the info! Thats pretty much the kind of response I was looking for - someone with first hand experience as to why it would either be a good or bad idea. I was kind of hopeful that it might be a good idea since MSFS2004 has a Cessna 172, and thats what I am learning on - but if the nose and horizon dont match up (even closely) with the real thing, then I can see where it would be useless as a training tool.

The simulator can be very valuable for procedures. Checklists, radio procedures, etc. It can help you get comfortable with these so that your regular lessons become more productive.

I’ve shot instrument approaches in Flight Sim 2000, and it felt quite a bit like the real thing. Even used my own approach plates, and everything worked just right. Since there are a LOT of procedures in instrument flying, a simulator is worth more, and you can actually log instrument time as credit towards a license, up to a certain amount, and when you’re in the presence of an instructor.

The FAA keeps flirting with certification of MS Flight Sim as an acceptable instrument trainer for some things. They may even have done it by now.

Another checking in on the “what’s the use” side. I haven’t kept up with flight sims for quite some time, but I just cannot imagine learning anything really useful from a flight sim while trying to get the basics of VFR flight down. Maybe it’s just me, but the toughest things for me to nail down while working on my private pilots license were things like getting used to steep turns, learning how to compensate for wind in turns around a point, and getting a feel for the perspective of the runway on short field landings.

I just can’t imagine actually getting the hang of any of those things while looking at my 17" monitor.

OTOH, sims are excellent for learning how to fly under the Golden Gate Bridge. Espeically if you live on the East Coast.

I was never very impressed by MSFllightSim, but the last version I played with was 2000. News told of a student naval aviator several years ago who made a T-34 flight model for MSFS and did so well in training that the navy started issuing the program to all of its students, presumably so they would do as well. There might be a logical fallacy of some sort here; however, I imagine a few individuals may indeed benefit from playing flight sim prior to flight training.

Where I see value in MSFS(game)-caliber flight simulators is as what some call a “part-task trainer” (PTT). For instance, teaching procedure turn instrument approach procedures, holding, or a precision approach instrument cross-check. Another PTT is a program that independently simulates IFR ATC communication. A poster or cockpit layout is often used as a PTT for accomplishing long preflight checklists on more complicated airplanes. Avionics makers often offer PC programs that serve as PTTs for operating, say, a Garmin GPS; much cheaper than learning on a Garmin panel mounted in a running airplane. You get the idea.

As far as instrument flying skills, the FAA has an advisory circular regarding Personal Computer-Based Aviation Training Devices (PCATDs), AC 61-126 but I think these setups can set you back a couple grand. You can log a small amount of training on a PCATD - my wife paid about $20/hour on one at the flight school that she logged toward her instrument rating. In our area, I know of a couple flight schools and a pilot shop that sell PCATD time.

Good luck with your training!

The problem is, the simulator you’re talking about won’t do that for you. You’d be better off not buying it and using the money for another hour or two of actual flight time instead.

Practice, practice, practice!

Look, you’re learning a physical skill, you have to put the time in to train your eyes, hands, brain, and so forth. You can’t learn gymnastics from a simulator, you can’t learn karate from a video - you have to actually get in there and do it. The only way you’re going to learn where the nose goes in relation to the horizon is get up there and play around with it. What to hear something else? That relationship between nose and horizon is likely to be slightly different for every airplane you fly - including different model years of C172’s. You need to learn how to find that point so you can do it when you fly a different airplane.

I’ve got over 250 hours, but when I stepped into a Piper Arrow the first time it probably took me at least 15-20 minutes to get that thing stable in straight-and-level flight because it handled differently than what I had been flying. Unless you fly the exact same aircraft your whole life this problem is going to come up again. It’s not a matte of solving the problem once and for all - you need to develop the skills to solve certain problems over and over. The good news is that as you gain experience you’ll be figuring things out faster.

Double-checking the instruments is OK, dude - that’s one reason they’re there. It takes time to learn to fly “by the seat of your pants”. Your instructor is there to keep you out of trouble and help you. At this point - what, you have less than 5 actual hours? - you are expected to make mistakes. At this point, YES, you SHOULD BE spending 15-20 minutes learning to fly straight and level. Learn to use the trim wheel. Adjust the power. Don’t throw out the good in pursuit of perfection. If you’re wobbling up and down 50 feet in “staight and level” flight and wandering off course - well, for where you are that’s acceptable. Relax a little, don’t beat yourself up, and it will come.

Also, another little factoid - it is extremely unlikely you’re going to shave any time off when you’re flying 1 to 1-1/2 hours per week. Given the time between lessons, each lesson is going to require a little bit of review (about that 15-20 minutes you mentioned) If you can fly more frequently you can progress faster. If you fly less often you will progress slower (if at all). Right now, you need the flying time and the actual experience.

If you’re getting a skill in just three tries and fifteen minutes you’re ahead of the curve, fella. What’s the big hurry?

Here’s another little item - it’s worth it to spend the time and effort on the very basic skills because they’re just that - basic skills. You will need them and use them every hour you fly. Learning to hold heading and altitude and airspeed is an extremely important skill, it can even be a lifesaver. If you learn them well you’ll be on your way to being a better-than-average pilot. If you don’t learn them well you’ll struggle for your next 100 hours, 500 hours… maybe you’ll spend a lifetime wondering why you just can’t the performance that other guy flying the same plane gets. Don’t be too hasty here - learn these basic, basic skills well, perfect them. But only way to perfect them is to actually do them - in the air, in an airplane. It’s great you’ve got an inner drive to improve, but you can’t afford to take short cuts at the beginning.

Nope. See, the PC simulators give you all the information through your eyeballs. And when you’re flying RC planes, you get all your information through your eyeballs.

Full size aircraft are different - you’re sitting in them, for one thing. You need to learn to use your other senses - hear the rhythem of your particular engine at different RPM (when I had a tachometer go out in flight once I had only my ears to judge RPM’s for landing), you need to feel how smooth or rough the engine is. You need to learn to interpret what your sense of balance tells you - AND when to ignore that sense. You need to know what’s normal for the controls and their resistance (I’ve had a gas tank leak and run dry in flight - I first noticed that the lateral balance of the plane was off and I kept needing more and more yoke input to maintain level flight. I spotted a loose rudder cable on the ground because of how different it felt from the normal control inputs. If you have an electrical failure in an airplane with an electrical stall warning system your only “stall warning” may be the stall buffet - you can’t see it, hear it, or smell it, you’ll only know it’s there by the feel of the controls and how your butt feels). You need to learn to estimate the necessary compensation for a crosswind on approach to landing - and that takes practice, practice, practice. You will NOT get that right on the first, second, third time… Heck, i’ve got near a thousand landings I still misjudge that occassionally and have to go around.

This isn’t something you can “get” just once and be perfect forvever afterward. Better to spend an extra few hours of flight time learning the skills than to be in too much of a hurry to get your license. And trust me - the cross countries you have to make solo will be a lot less stressful if you take the time - whatever time you need - to learn the basics.

Here’s my suggestion to help you learn faster and save money: Have your procedures for a given manuver written down. Find a time the plane isn’t being rented (really bad weather days are good for this), sit in that cockpit, and do a rehearsal. Over and over. Practice an entire flight - talk yourself through it, go through the checklists, touch each control.

So, for take-off (after the required checklists): “I am going to line up on the centerline of the runway. I will look at the engine oil gauge (touch the gauge) and the oil temp gauge (touch the gauge) and I will check for traffic one last time (do a side-to-side scan) and then I will push the throttle forward (touch the throttle) and accelerate to 55 knots, pull back slightly (pull back on the yoke) and climb out at 78 knots (touch the airspeed dial) until I reach 400 feet, then I will turn —” This teaches your body to perform certain motions in a certain sequence, your eyes to travel to certain spots, and is a better, cheaper simulator than MS’s product.

So… for leveling out - “I will lower the nose (gentle push on yoke), then I will wait until my airspeed increases to XXX (whatever you want to cruise at - and tap that airspeed again) then I will reduce power to XXX (touch throttle) and then I will use the trim wheel to relieve the control pressure in the yoke (touch the trim wheel) and I will confirm this with the VSI (touch that)” and so on and so forth.

Better yet, have your CFI help you work this up, because I’m doing this off the top of my head after a long day at work so I’ve probably flubbed in at least one spot.

Especially do this with the emergency checklists - ALL of those checklists, even the ones you don’t think you’ll ever need because you aren’t stupid enough to get into that situation. I’ve had an actual emergency landing into a farm field - practically someone’s backyard. You don’t want to have to think about to do something in that situation, you have barely enough time to just do it.

I still sit in cockpit and do these rehearsals from time to time. Certainly whenever I check out in a new airplane. When I rent an airplane I haven’t flown before, because the avionics are always in different places. And just to keep my skills sharp.

Yes, you ARE allowed to make engine noises with your lips during the dry run - aviation is supposed to be fun, too. Aviating is like sex - if it ain’t fun and it don’t feel good you ain’t doin’ it right. :smiley:

I’ll add my 2 cents here.

As others have said, MS Flight Sim is probably only useful for learning procedural flying such as instrument flying. It is not of any great value for actually physically flying an aeroplane because you have none of the cues available to you such as sound, smell, and balance. The view from the cockpit is not realistic enough (the view from a real cockpit can change significantly depending on how you’ve adjusted your seat). It’s not even much value for initial instrument training as one of the major battles is trusting your instruments rather than your sense of balance, in a flight sim your sense of balance isn’t telling you anything to start with so there’s no great conflict.

However, flight sim games, or any games really, may be good for your general hand/eye coordination and some are mentally stimulating and challenging. Just because a flight sim won’t count for any of your hours or provide any real specific flight training value doesn’t mean it’s not a good thing to buy.

I wouldn’t worry about doing 1 - 1.5 hours a week. When I started flying I was unemployed and living at home with my Mum. The lovely NZ government paid me $115 NZD (approx $60 US) per week to be unemployed and after paying board of $40 to Mum, I could afford to do a 0.7 hr lesson in a C152 which was hired out at $105 NZ/hour all inclusive. My instructors were aware of my financial situation and so they made sure that the lessons didn’t run overtime. It took 1.5 years to do the 50 hours required for my NZ PPL at a rate of 1 0.7 hour lesson per week. Gaining a (non flying) job then allowed me to get a loan and complete my CPL in a few more months. I was lucky enough to become employed in a flying job on the day I got my CPL and have never looked back since. The NZ government have been well and trully paid back in the form of taxes.

The point is that 1 - 1.5 hours a week is enough to keep current. Try and make sure you always have the same instructor so you aren’t repeating things each lesson. Try and spend a lot of time out at the airport. Make a day of it, hang out with the students and instructors, talk things over with other students. If you are using a C172 then ride in the back during other students lessons (if they are comfortable with that). You will learn more in a shorter period of time and it’s always nice to see that other students have the same troubles you do! Try and get into the cockpit as much as you can. In addition to the great suggestions that the others have here, try and see if your instructors will let you taxi the aircraft at any available opportunity - I used to take the C152 around to the bowser for fuel or to the maintenance hanger whenever I could - it all helps to make you more comfortable in the cockpit.

Finally, back onto the subject of getting a flight sim (or not), there are posters produced which show the cockpits of various different aircraft from C152s all the way up to B777s, caligynephobia mentioned them earlier. You may find it very useful to get a C172 cockpit poster and use it to practice your checks. Same as if you’re doing it in the aeroplane, say what you’re doing and touch each relevant control or gauge as you say it.

Unfortunately far too many people who fly for a living have forgotten how fun it can be (some never knew to start with). Perhaps it really is like sex, get paid to do it and it looses it’s allure :).

Actually, some of us make engine noises even when we are flying for real.

one game/sim that really impressed me with the realism and real world flight characteristics is IL-2 stormkovic. What is really amazing is the very large differences in flying different types/models and loadouts of various airplanes.
On realistic difficulty settings it is amazing both how incredibly agile some of the planes were from world war 2 but alos how incredibly unforgiving many of the designs were.

Personally, I find flight sims to be unrealistically difficult. Flying the same aircraft in real life is a lot easier than flying it on the sim. I think it comes down to the lack of senses involved in the sim.

Broomstick’s detailed, thoughtful answer:

::Golf clap::

::Golf clap::

Nicely done.

I was lucky enough to have the guv’mt pay for my training, but many of the techniques Broomstick mentioned were used in my training.

Learning basic skills is key - and REALLY learn them! Pitch, power, airspeed…they are the heart and soul of flying.

::warning: War Story::

When I interviewed for my airline job one of the “tests” was a simulator session. You were tossed into a simulator (in my case, a B-777) and told to take off, level off, hold airspeed, turn ,etc. In a completely unfamiliar airplane, you were expected to hold ATP standards.

How in the world do you do that? By flying the airplane like any other: pitch and power. After a few minutes any pilot with a decent knowledge of pitch and power settings would be straight and level.

::End of War Story::

When I was in pilot training they described our training as the pyramid effort. First you have to lay down a broad, strong base. (This is what you are doing now).

After that you can build higher and higher, making the rocks more specialized until you reach a point. Each layer of rocks represents more flying knowledge and experience. The rocks depend on your chosen line of flying (ie F-16 pilot or 777 Captain), but one thing is sure: the last rock (the point) is not layed until you fly your last flight.

The pyramid of your flying career begins with the base you lay at the beginning. Lay down a large base, don’t skimp on the knowledge or the work, and your flying career will be limitless.

Good luck!!!
And for 1920’s Style Death Ray: I agree that too many people that do this for a living take it for granted. Every time I climb above the overcast and get blinded by a rising sun I think: THIS is the best job there is.

I’ve seen shooting stars and the Northern Lights;
fireworks on the 4th and fireworks on the 1st;
lightning down below and lightning in my lap;
forest fires I’ve flown over and hurricanes I’ve flown around;
thrashing wind on final and a tailwind going home;
holding patterns I’ve flown and the exceptions that I’ve wrung;
Hold that line in sequence, I’m sure I can get it done!

Pilot141, who’s been paid to fly since day one but has always loved it.

At this point, I can’t add much more than a “what they all said.” Simulator afficionados (like I used to be) will defend to the death their ability to fly the MSFS 777 in all kinds of weather and do a perfect CAT III approach. And sure, some of them probably could fly a Cessna 172 as well, but there’s not necessarily any direct correlation.
The sim can replicate the instruments perfectly (I used to use Terminal Reality’s Fly! series, which was extrordinary) but as far as what’s going on outside the window, nothing can duplicate actually being there and experiencing with all your senses. The horizon and the scenery on the screen still won’t look anything like the real thing. Since flying is such a new sensation for most people, it’s far more important to develop your “muscle memory” than it is to know how to work the instruments. Besides, if your instructor is like mine, when he sees you fixating on the instruments, he’ll just cover them with a sheet of paper.

Finally, since no one’s said this, you don’t use the words, “save money” and “flying” in the same sentence. :slight_smile:

Amen av8rmike! But can we use the words “spend a little less money” and “flying” in the same sentence?

Silk1976, there are certainly ways to reduce the cost of your training, though I don’t know that a flight sim is reliably one of them. Some suggestions I can come up with right off the bat are to consider a block rate from your FBO, i.e. see if your flight school gives a discount if you pre-purchase flight time. Some FBOs discount rates if you pay with cash or check instead of credit. Another possibility (assuming you’re paying for your training with real money) is AOPA’s FBO rebate program, if you can responsibly deal with another credit card (don’t carry a balance). This usually saves me a couple hundred a year for my recreational flying and more than pays for the membership. Finally, you may have a choice between flying at a big controlled airport for the “benefit” of learning to “communicate with ATC” vs. a small uncontrolled field; my experience says that you’ll generally log more airborne hobbs time at the uncontrolled field. Any other suggestions guys?

1920s Style Death Ray, av8rmike, Broomstick and Johnny L.A. - love your posts!

And Pilot141, good stuff - as you’ve probably guessed I work for your former employer. I’m wondering if we’ve flown together . . . Hammerheads?

caligynephobia if you mean the Hammerheads of the 86 FTS, then yes, we might have flown together!

I was there in the Reserves from Dec 2000 until June 2002, and active duty guest helping before that.