Pilots: share your thoughts about and experiences with flight simulators

One of Johnny L.A.'s recent threads got slightly sidetracked with a discussion about playing Microsoft Flight Simulator (and if I recall correctly, I’m responsible for that sidetracking). But I’m interested in a little more discussion about it, if folks are willing.

I’d like to hear from pilots (be it GA or commercial) who have experience using any type of flight simulation programs – from the most basic to the most sophisticated. I’d like to hear how you felt that your experiences with simulations translated into what you were doing when you were actually in the air. Do they make you a better pilot overall? Are they only useful for learning how to handle emergency situations? Are they completely useless? Do they suck the joy out of flying? Are they fun, but feel more like a video game than anything to do with real flying?

Further, I’d be curious to hear your opinions about how a person who starts out using only a simulator might fare if suddenly thrust into a real-world scenario. For example, it has been said that if someone becomes an expert at playing the drums (in expert or Pro mode) on Rock Band, they are going to be able to do fairly well with a basic drum set. And on the other end of the spectrum, someone who is really, really good at Wii bowling isn’t necessarily going to be able to do much of anything comparable in a real bowling alley.

So where would using a flight simulator fall in that spectrum for a complete novice? If I got really good at landing a commercial jet in Microsoft’s program (as long as someone else were handling communications), would I have a better than average chance to save the passengers if Leslie Nielsen were to call on me when the chips were down? Would I fail miserably because, even if I understood all of the instrumentation and followed instruction to the letter, the actual handling of the plane would feel nothing like using a joystick at my computer, and I’d be lost? What are your thoughts?

Lapsed private pilot here who got his license before GPS was prevalent (hence, VOR navigation).

I found MSFS helpful in practicing navigation/route planning. Not at all useful for practicing flying per se.

My flight sim experience is with Microsoft Flight Sim 2004 and my most recent real life flying experience has been in a mid sized turbo-prop and a jet (Dash 8 and BAe146 respectively.) When I was fairly new to the Dash 8 in real life I downloaded FS 2004 and got a Dash 8 add on for it that was remarkably realistic. Every panel was faithfully recreated, all the switches on the overhead and instrument panels worked, the systems all worked, the flight management computer worked properly. It was about as close to the real thing as you could get outside a full motion simulator. I had mucked around with flight sims before and my latest experience confirmed what I already knew.

PC based flight sims have one major disadvantage, they give no tactile feedback. You can see what’s happening and you can hear what’s happening but you can’t feel what’s happening, and when it comes to really flying an aeroplane, feeling is very important. When flying visually the sensations of acceleration and movement you get are a great aid to flying smoothly and accurately. On the other hand, when flying on instruments alone with no view of the outside world as a backup, the feelings of acceleration and movement fool your brain into thinking the aeroplane is doing stuff it’s not.

Another thing most flight sim setups lack is field of view. Even most full motion simulators don’t have enough field of view to let pilots realistically practice a simple circuit. There are PC flight sim setups that address this such as multiple monitors and/or motion sensing head gear, but it’s not ideal.

So my opinion is that, because of the lack of physical sensation and limited field of view, visually hand-flying a PC flight sim is of very little benefit. Where sims are quite good though is in procedural training for instrument flying extending to specific aircraft procedural flying. Using my Dash 8 sim as an example, from the moment the autopilot was engaged and it took care of the physical flying while I told it what I wanted it to do, it was pretty realistic. And when flying on autopilot under the instrument flight rules everything becomes a numbers game. The sim was quite good for that. I found it valuable on occasion to use it to verify that the descent profile I’d worked out for a particular instrument approach, and sometimes I’d have a look at a couple of approaches in it before doing my 6 monthly simulator check in the full motion sim. Aside from this kind of very specific use, the sim had limited value and was essentially nothing more than a game.

Having said that, I know of one Dash 8 pilot who used a flight sim to practice engine failures and other things requiring hands-on flying. Personally I didn’t see the point.

I think experience in a flight sim might help if thrust into a real life scenario in a few ways. If the sim was realistic enough, like my Dash 8 one was, you would know where all of the switches were and you might know what they did, you might even have got access to some specific company procedures and you might know intellectually what has to be done to get it on to the ground. If the aircraft was fitted with auto-land your knowledge would probably make it a lot easier to be talked down than if you knew nothing. If you had to actually take control and fly it though I think most people would come unstuck. What do the thrust levers feel like to move? How much pressure do you need on the controls to get the result you want? What does it feel like when you’re getting too slow on approach?

If both pilots ate the fish and a passenger had to land the aeroplane, I’d choose the experienced private pilot to physically fly the aeroplane and the sim pilot to assist them with the radio, reading checklists, and getting the gear and flap out.

I did private pilot license for Cessnas…MSFS and whatever the FAA-certified simulator we used at the flying school (back in 2000) didn’t help very much. The FAA box was way too limited, terrible graphics, and didn’t model stalls or spins well.

Playing MMO combat flight sims (Warbirds and Aces High) helped immensely however. They are unforgivingly realistic and finicky simulators. After 100s of hours as a virtual ace strafing artillery and dive bombing, real world maneuvers like lining up for landings, S-turns, point turns, stalls, etc were weirdly instinctual. I also did unusual attitude and spin recoveries correctly the first time without thinking, which I credit to Warbirds.

Used MS Flight sim with yoke and throttle quadrant (for both single and multi), and a Frasca 141 Simulator while in training. I found them useful for learning procedures, like instrument approaches, without the added distraction that real world flying creates. That said, my first introduction to simulators was during my instrument rating, after I had my private pilot certificate.

When I was flight instructing, I had a handful of primary students who had a lot of experience with MS flight sim. On a whole, they grasped some concepts quicker than average, like interpreting instruments, and some reactions. However, without exception, they also came with some bad habits to break. Fixating on the instruments is a no no during private pilot training, flight should be made with outside visual reference. The simmers would invariably fixate inside far too much. I usually covered up their instruments with sticky notes for a while to help break that one. They had a few landing issues, jerking the yoke back repeatedly “feeling” for the runway. Not sure how to describe it, but they all did it. All in all though, they were good students, who progressed faster than average, I’d say.

Many airlines require a “Sim interview.” This portion of the hiring process throws the pilot into the simulator of a plane they’ve probably never been in, and has them perform various tasks, like an instrument approach, turns, climbs, holds, etc. Most of these are in “Level D” simulators- full visuals, full cockpit mockups, and full motion. Feels 95% like the real thing. When I was interviewing for my first airline job, I spent about 10 hours with MS flight sim, and the model of jet that the airline was interviewing in, so that I could orient myself to the cockpit layout, and get a better idea of how the airplane handled at a basic level. That experience served me very well in the interview because I knew where to look, and what to expect, and concentrate on the flying itself.

When I was hired, the training was in Level D simulators. That sim is accurate enough and sophisticated enough that after training in the sim, you go out and do it for real with passengers on board (with a supervisory training pilot). I’ve often wondered what the passengers would have thought at my first landing, if they only knew…
Now, I still have to revisit the sim every year as part of simulator training. They are useful tools, but since they are effectively “The schoolhouse,” and sim instructors throw all manner of malfunctions and screw ups at you in the sim, I have to admit to a slight amount Pavlov-ian dread of them now. You never have a “normal day” in a sim, it’s emergencies, abnormals, and various other unfun things to get tested and evaluated on. I always learn something though, and that’s the important part to carry back with you to the real airplane.

As a quick aside, I’ve been on one commercial flight where the passengers were told – AFTER we’d taxied off the runway – that it was that particular pilot’s first landing. It had been just a touch bumpier than normal on touchdown, but not enough to think it had anything to do with the pilot’s experience.

The announcement was greeted with a lot of applause. :slight_smile:

There was an episode of Mythbusters where the two man guys try to land a 747 or something like that, testing the old TV/movie cliche’ of random passenger, now pilot, gets “talked” down by air traffic control.

The guys got access to a top rate simulator (and I think one of the guys has some piloting experience). Then, there was some middle aged, or perhaps a bit older guy (probably FAA) that would try to talk them down. In the simulation there were no problems like engines out or whatever. They just had to try land the plane.

The guys took it somewhat seriously but they had fun trying. I think they might have succeed a time or two (and had failures too). There was a part where the warning system had a serious “gay man lisp” where it kept telling them to “dive” but it sounded more like “die” “die” “die” :slight_smile:

The interesting minor detail to me was the “FAA” guy. I got the impression he was stressed the fuck out. IIRC his leg was visibly shaking. To the mythbuster guys this was fun. To him, this shit was real and in his mind he probably watched a couple of thousand people die during that day.

I suspected he had to go throw up somewhere or light a cigarette or drink some Wild Turkey or something when it was all over.

As a pilot of large military cargo planes and small general aviation planes, I’d have to say that no simulator will be just like the real thing. But some come close. The C-141 sim was decent, and you could practice landing in it, but a good landing in the sim isn’t the same as a good landing in the real world. I hear the C-17 sim is the bee’s knees, but it’s still just a sim. They are good for procedures training, emergency training, and some instrument work, but if you expect to be a great pilot after only flying the sim then you would be mistaken.

For PC sims, they are good for general instrument procedures, and maybe some general knowledge, but they aren’t good for ‘actualy’ flying. You might get some benefits from it, but as been stated above, you miss so much from a PC sim. They are good to get a general idea of the whole ‘flying thing,’ but it won’t make you a pilot. Actually switching switches, moving levers, and sitting in the seat is very different from your desktop PC with a joystick and keyboard.

All these are really just tools to help prepare you for actual flying. The more you are familiar with before you are in a plane, the better you will do. But no matter how well you do in the sim, you heart will start pumping the first time you do it in the real world. :slight_smile:

I can vouch for this. I took a few glider lessons 20 years ago. There is not much in terms of instrumentation; you spend a lot of time flying visually, rarely looking at your instruments (altitude, speed, and variometer).

Dropped the lessons and flew vicariously via MS Flight Simulator.

Then a few years ago, I get a chance to fly with someone on a single engine. Guess who keeps fixating on the instruments, rather than looking out for other traffic? Worse, the view from this aircraft is far more restricted. The pilot commented on this (along with my very aggressive turns), but didn’t appreciate why I’d been focused on the instruments until you wrote this post, Av8trix.

The crude flight simulators available 20 years ago were still useful. To make a level, coordinated turn not only requires moving the ailerons and rudder, but pulling back on the elevator. I did this on my very first flight; the instructor noted it was unusual to perform this maneuver correctly on the first lesson.

I’m a flight instructor and Richard Pearse and Av8trix pretty much covered it all. Sims are useful for procedures, particularly navigation. Nearly useless for “stick and rudder” flying, and can put new students into bad habits. I see it all the time.

I can definitely understand how not being able to feel what’s going on can make a huge difference. I’ve often wondered about what sort of stresses I’m putting on the plane when I’m trying to make super-tight turns in MFS, and I don’t get any feedback from turbulence. Also, while I’ve gotten a lot better at “successful” flights in commercial jets, I know that I’m doing things that would probably be causing my passengers to throw up, if not actually injuring them, but I have no real sense of that from my actions.

I don’t have any delusions about MFS making me a great pilot, but I still think it’s useful to know what I’m not getting by playing this game.

On the plus side, MFS has taught me that I will probably never, EVER pilot a helicopter. Boy do I suck at that.

My father has a pilot’s license. He tried MS Flight Simulator once and said it was completely wrong, since real planes are designed so that you don’t crash if you make a slight error or overcompensate. If small planes worked like Flight Simulators, they’d be crashing hourly.

In the other thread, Broomstick said that sticking a landing in Flight Simulator is actually more difficult in some ways than doing it in a real airplane. I find that…reassuring.

I had a Private license with 60 hours in small craft at the time my friends and I walked past a real authentic looking 747 flight sim in an arcade once so I sat down to give it a try.

I killed everyone on the plane three times in a row.

That was enough to prove at least anecdotally to me there is no way a tower could guide your average joe to land a commercial jetliner successfully.

If that’s the game I’m thinking of, I’ll wager that no actual airline pilot could do it either. It was set up with no way to trim, so you’re constantly having to juke it around.