Florida Gov. Rick Scott cancels high speed rail

[XT]

And considering that they feel exactly the same way about your side, it sort of underscores Airman Door’s point, no?

-XT

[Ludovic]

It doesn’t matter what they think, since most of them have shown themselves impervious to both logic and horse trading. This is also the case for people I disagree with on the opposite side of the political spectrum, only to a lesser extent.

[XT]

Ah…irony. Thanks for that.

-XT

[Acid_Lamp]

@Dogzilla

The thing is… it’s only a 45-minute drive from Daytona to Orlando and maybe another 45 minutes from Orlando to Tampa. I could see if you were commuting daily from Daytona to Tampa for work every day, where a high speed rail could really benefit you. But how many people do that? It’s not like San Francisco where nobody can afford to live in Orlando. Relatively speaking, Central Florida is reasonably cheap (See also: The No Income Taxes thing.)

At two A.M driving 85 + the entire way, maybe.

More realistic drive times (non rush hour) would be more like orlando to daytona 1hr 15 min, maybe a pinch more to tampa. anywhere near peak hours and that can turn into hours. easily.

[RedFury]

@xtisme

Not necessarily. If the project would be a net loss for Florida (i.e. if it costs more in recurring funding than the state gets back in taxes, jobs and funding, etc) then it hurts the states bottom line, even if it helps Disney’s bottom line. It all depends on how much in the red it puts the state…and what the ROI for the state is on their own costs (and how much Disney is willing to pony up initially and in recurring costs…if they are willing to do the later at all).

These things always look simple from a mile high view. It’s when you really start digging in that it becomes complex. I have to assume that the Governor (or at least his staff) have looked at the figures, and determined that something doesn’t work. It COULD just be political, of course (i.e. the theory in this thread that he’s just playing to the Tea Party), but if the numbers work out to be in the black for the state then I’m sure someone, somewhere is going to point that out and make him look like an idiot…

Scott’s reasons for rejecting rail project faulty

From the article:

**…In his letter to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, Scott suggested that Florida’s rail allocation would best be spent on interstate and port infrastructure projects, but he must have been advised that those federal dollars are designated only for rail.

Scott also cited what he projected as $3 billion in potential cost overruns, which he stated would burden Florida taxpayers. But that, too, is not factual.

As recently outlined, any construction contract would have bound the contractor to pay for overruns, not taxpayers, and a variety of international companies stood poised to bid on the project.

Furthermore, the governor indicated questionable ridership and revenue projections, labeling them as “historically overly optimistic.” Yet Scott disregarded his own repeated statement about waiting for a ridership study from the state Department of Transportation before deciding the project’s future. That study has yet to be completed. In addition, the aforementioned contract would have also bound the contractor to cover operating deficits.

Again, the governor is putting up a false front on this issue.

In his own statement soon after Scott’s, LaHood expressed extreme disappointment. He also noted how the federal government restructured the project to satisfy Florida’s fears:

“We worked with the governor to make sure we eliminated all financial risk for the state, instead requiring private businesses competing for the project to assume cost overruns and operating expenses.”…**

Not ready to call him an “idiot” yet but his decision certainly appears hasty…to say the least. As a frequent visitor to Florida, I’ve taken the Turnpike numerous times – boring as shit drive and one that I would gladly decline if there was a bullet-train in place. And although it’s just a hunch, I’m pretty sure so would countless other visitors & locals. I mean just think about it, the Orlando/Miami connection has got to be one of the busiest in the States.

In any event, why cancel the project prior to the Department Of Transportation’s final report? Something smells funny…

[Ludovic]

Ah…irony. Thanks for that.

-XT

No, the irony is I probably agree with your political positions to a greater extent than 90% of people on this board. You are engaging in the same dismissive attitude toward everyone who disagrees with you, as well, only trying to couch it in terms of “I’m entitled to ignore the factual content of your post because I’m so damn objective”.

[XT]

[QUOTE=Ludovic]
No, the irony is I probably agree with your political positions to a greater extent than 90% of people on this board. You are engaging in the same dismissive attitude toward everyone who disagrees with you, as well, only trying to couch it in terms of “I’m entitled to ignore the factual content of your post because I’m so damn objective”.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not dismissing anything…merely pointing out that if both sides dismiss each other in pretty much the same way and with the same attitudes of ‘There’s no reason to listen to the other side when 95% of what they say is either knee-jerk reactionism or complete idiocy. They may be right occasionally but it’s entirely by accident’ pretty much poisons the political environment and makes any sort of discourse pretty much impossible.

-XT

[XT]

[QUOTE=RedFury]
In any event, why cancel the project prior to the Department Of Transportation’s final report? Something smells funny…
[/QUOTE]

But it’s not like that final report has been canceled. So, if it comes out and supports the position that this wouldn’t have been a major burden on Florida’s budget then he is going to look like an idiot. Reading your article it SEEMS to indicate that he made a bad call, but they don’t go into a lot of detail, merely make assertions. If Scott did make this decision based solely on ideology as was stated in your article then he’s probably going to get hammered in the next election…or, he knows the reactions of the people of Florida better than we do.

-XT

[Dogzilla]

@Acid_Lamp

At two A.M driving 85 + the entire way, maybe.

More realistic drive times (non rush hour) would be more like orlando to daytona 1hr 15 min, maybe a pinch more to tampa. anywhere near peak hours and that can turn into hours. easily.

I believe you.

Do that many people really live in Tampa and work in Orlando, or vice versa? Is that commute that common? :dubious:

I get why Atlantans often live an hour or two away from work. Atlanta is huge and inside-the-perimeter living can be cost prohibitive. Atlanta also has semi-decent public transportation.

I do not get why I would live in Orlando and work in Tampa. In terms of comparing cost of living, it’s about the same. I can’t make sense of that being so common that millions of people need to pay $15-20 per ride (on the HST) to make that commute.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Dogzilla

Do that many people really live in Tampa and work in Orlando, or vice versa? Is that commute that common? :dubious:

I get why Atlantans often live an hour or two away from work. Atlanta is huge and inside-the-perimeter living can be cost prohibitive. Atlanta also has semi-decent public transportation.

I do not get why I would live in Orlando and work in Tampa. In terms of comparing cost of living, it’s about the same. I can’t make sense of that being so common that millions of people need to pay $15-20 per ride (on the HST) to make that commute.

There are lots of things that you can’t do in Tampa that you can do in Orlando, and vice versa. Hell, I personally know 120 law students who commute from Lakeland, St. Pete, or Tampa to Orlando every day.

[Robot_Arm]

@CannyDan

I’m not sure I see the fallacy, nor the incidental nature of the benefit.

Right now the only way people can navigate that corridor is by car. Providing an alternate means (high speed rail) will allow some number of those people to use it, thus “meet[ing] the needs of” those people and not at all *incidentally *reducing auto congestion.

Perhaps fallacy was the wrong word, but I still think that’s the wrong way to look at this type of project, for two reasons.

1. You have to attract riders. If your main pitch to the public is that the rail line will relieve congestion on the road, then the day the project opens everyone jumps in their car, same as usual, and will be stuck in gridlock, same as usual.

2. How you design the project matters. Someone has to decide how many stops there will be, and where, how spacious the seats are, whether there’s room for luggage, all those sorts of things. The system has to be designed to best serve the people who will be using it. If the message from the top is that this is only being done to make the roads better, they could lose sight of who they’re really building it for.

[Ludovic]

@Dogzilla

Do that many people really live in Tampa and work in Orlando, or vice versa? Is that commute that common? :dubious:

There are a lot of people who live in between and work in one or the other. But is the project going to be non-stop between Orlando and Tampa? If so then I’d agree it wouldn’t be very useful (even though it would be more useful to me personally if it were nonstop because I never go anywhere between Orlando and Tampa)

But of course high-speed rail with stops wouldn’t be faster than driving, except during rush hour and if you work near the terminals, once you factor in commute times once you reach the terminals.

[Dogzilla]

According to my link at the top of this page,

Passengers will connect to high speed trains at stations in Tampa, Lakeland, Walt Disney World resorts, International Drive and Orlando International Airport. Each of these stations will have parking facilities, rental cars, plus bus, light rail or commuter rail transit connections.

Sounds like stops to me. Plus the hassle of transferring to some other mode of transportation at the train station.

Linky to map.

[Ludovic]

Stops or no stops, it’s no wonder Disney is offering to subsidize this. About the only use I can think for it is tourists who want to hit Tampa and Orlando and think that high speed rail is more convenient than a car.

Although the idea of a train between MCO and Disney is one I would support even if it is not subsidized, because it would go a long way toward lessening the traffic jams on south I-4 near the Mouse.

But the whole reason an MCO-WDW train would work is because Disney’s transportation is so good that you don’t need a car once you’re on Disney property. So in a way Disney is subsidizing it (for their own reasons.)

[flickster]

If it’s so viable, just let Disney, Six Flags, Universal and the rest build it on their own

[Dogzilla]

@flickster

If it’s so viable, just let Disney, Six Flags, Universal and the rest build it on their own

I was just thinking that same thing.

[XT]

I haven’t been to Florida in years. Are there mass transit options (bus, subway, etc) at the proposed terminals in either Tampa or Orlando? What would commuters do once they got off the train?

[QUOTE=flickster]
If it’s so viable, just let Disney, Six Flags, Universal and the rest build it on their own
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, exactly. Hell, I would even go so far as to giving them a subsidy from the government (hell, they can have the whole $2 billion) for the initial costs if they will simply pay the difference and run the thing on their dime.

-XT

[CannyDan]

@xtisme

<snip>Yeah, exactly. Hell, I would even go so far as to giving them a subsidy from the government (hell, they can have the whole $2 billion) for the initial costs if they will simply pay the difference and run the thing on their dime.

-XT

We’ve come full circle. In post 65, **RedFury **asserts that was exactly the offer on the table.

[XT]

If that’s the case then Disney et al don’t NEED Florida. They can apply for a grant from the government directly, and build the thing as their own system. I suspect that this isn’t exactly what was on the table, however.

-XT

[Page_Fault]

@xtisme

If that’s the case then Disney et al don’t NEED Florida. They can apply for a grant from the government directly, and build the thing as their own system. I suspect that this isn’t exactly what was on the table, however.

-XT

While I’m not in the highway-building(or railway) industry, I expect a lot of paperwork and details are needed to build a rail system. It may not be as simple as asking the government for money and building it. State approval may be necessary.