Fluoride in Drinking Water: Good? Bad?

Well, I’ll bite. :smiley: I actually did quite a bit of research on this issue some years back, for my own edification. There actually ARE some valid, reasonable objections to fluoridated water supplies, and flouride in general. For the record, I examined a wide variety of sources, so I’m familiar with the so-called conspiracy theories as well as with the peer-reviewed studies and scientific facts.

Fluoride is a toxin, there is no debate about this. The only debate is how much is too much.
Fluoride falls above lead and just below arsenic wrt general toxicity, and is a cummulative toxin, as is lead. Yet the allowable levels for fluoride in drinking water are over 200 times those for lead, last I checked. ( 0.015 ppm for lead and 4.0 ppm for flouride).

Even at lower dosages, there are many who can potentially get too much, because tap water is not the only source.

Many canned foods and bottled juices/beverages contain fluoride, as do most dental care products of course. It also occurs naturally (in its natural form, which differs from the form added to water and dental products, ftr) in some foods, the quantity heing highly variable depending on the type of food and where it was grown. (Colorado and Texas, to name 2 areas, have fairly high levels in the soil. Spinach, for instance, contains among the higher levels of naturally occuring fluoride, as does black tea).

Further, fluoride is an industrial pollutant (used in, among other applications, glass etching and the alluminum industry). Depending upon your location, you are exposed to varying levels through air, water, and soil contamination.

Perhaps the biggest variable has to do with differences in voulme of consumption/exposure relative to body mass. Some people consume far more water (or other flouride containing foods or beverages) than others. Children are far more likely to get much higher doses relative to their body mass, both because they are smaller but because they tend to consume more bottled juices as well as to injest more toothpaste and even be given fluoride tablets at home or school.

Ingestion of toothpaste is a common cause of poisoning in children, and a single tube can result in death (and has). Short of that, over-exposure can result in permanently damaged teeth (fluorosis, characterized by yellow or brown discolorations and fragility) and other symptoms of accute poisoning. Why tubes now carry a warning label…and why, imo, childrens’ toothpaste in enticing flavors like bubblegum should be banned! Yes, kids WILL eat it.

There is no evidence that ingesting fluoride past the 7 or so years of age has any beneficial effects on dental health, yet everyone is dosed. One of the documented effects of excessive fluoride consumption is damage to the skeletal system (brittle bones), and yet the elderly, who are at higher risk for this condition and stand to gain no benefit in terms of dental health, are dosed as well.

Other known results of long-term, higher dose fluoride exposure include bone and reproductive cancers.

It is, imo, simply irresponsible to attempt to deliver medication via the public water supply. Not only can the dose not be controlled, but it amounts to forced medication and carries risks, esp. to those more suseptible (risks which, again, cannot be controlled for due to the blanket nature of the practice.)

It is also debatable how much if any benefit to dental health exists, even when used at proper doses, and the early studies used to promote fluoridation have been challenged due to their methodology.

Anecdotally, my late husband and I were both raised with fluoridated water and toothpaste and we both had/have a mouth full of fillings. I didn’t STOP getting cavities until I was in my 20s and STOPPED using/drinking fluoride. I also have some brown discolorations on some molars due to fluorosis (diagnosed by a dentist).

Neither of my kids have ever drunk or used fluoride (aside from the infrfequent topical treatments at dental visits, which I allowed once they were old enough not to swallow any) and their teeth are great. My son, at almost 18, has had 2 tiny carries, both minor enough to be air-abraded, and my daughter, at 10, has had 1, in a baby tooth, which did not require treatment.

Our city does not fluoridate and I am glad…I do not want medication, ANY medication, in my drinking water. I am quite capable of procuring and using fluoride containing products if I choose to, and the schools here offer fluoride tablets to all students (unless parents sign off, which I do).

When I checked into this it turned out that only three countries in the world still uses this system. The US, Australia and Ireland. I guess if people refuse to brush their teeth or use dental products it might be helpful. Personally I want a reason TO do something I’m not going to put a chemical into the drinking water just because it “Doesn’t do any harm”. If the dental benefits of it outweighs the cost and potential risk, go for it. In most countries, it is judged that it doesn’t.

Oh, and yes, it is a fact that both the Nazis and the Soviets used fluoride in their concentration camps to pacify the populations. It does have verified “mind control” (also known as neurological) effects.

First, everything is potentially a toxin, including water itself. You’ve got that part right. It is however meaningless to compare toxicity levels for different elements and proclaim that “allowable levels for fluoride in drinking water are over 200 times those for lead”. They are different elements with different qualities and effects in humans. Dose levels are not comparable between the two.

Perhaps you can show us who is getting “too much” and what “toxicity” is resulting?

Young kids will consume a variety of household products and drugs, which is why they need to be secured, or in the case of toothpaste, administered early on under the supervision of an adult. Toothpaste is (surprise!) not meant to be eaten. There are a variety of substances and preservatives in toothpaste that could make you sick if you eat a bunch of it.

Wrong. Fluoride has a protective effect against cavities in all age groups.

As for claims made that water fluoridation has various detrimental health effects on the general population, these have not been substantiated in the great amount of research and clinical observation that has been done over the decades that water fluoridation has been studied and implemented. What we do know is that if has been an effective means of giving our children healthier teeth and saving a lot of money and trips to the dentist.

It needs to be pointed out again that this “medication” is present in all water supplies, and what municipalities do is to optimize the fluoride level to one that protects against dental caries.

Anecdotes like these are worth zilch, including the scare stories promoted by antifluoridationists (many of InterestedObserver’s warnings are common to the anti-fluoride websites that specialize in similar half-truths and irrelevancies).

One of the bogus tactics employed by antifluoridationists is to insist that parents should be able to refuse to allow their kids to receive this benefit, or to orally treat them if they wish. The former punishes children for their parents’ fears and lack of knowledge. The latter is highly impractical, since you’d have to give kids many thousands of tiny doses over time on an organized basis, which is not going to happen.

Uh-huh. The infamous “fluoride camps”, where inmates were compelled to brush their teeth until they were shiny clean. The horror!

This may not come as a total shock based on her last post, but InterestedObserver, apart from believing that science and government are foisting a dangerous “medication” on us through the water supply, is also a believer in conspiracy theories including the allegation that the U.S. government planned 9/11 and that various parties conspired to assassinate J.F.K.* So I’d take her claims with a grain of salt.

Or not.

Salt is, after all, a TOXIN. :slight_smile:

You couldn’t have checked very thoroughly, aside from the ones you listed significant users (>10% of their population) include:

Hong Kong
Israel
Singapore
Spain
U.K.
Canada
New Zealand
Brazil
Chile

Ones that fluoridate salt instead of water include France and Switzerland.

I am allergic to fluoride, and I brush my teeth with fluoride toothpaste, but rince thoroughly afterwards without swallowing. (Im not deathly allergic, I just get qweazy when I swallow it) I personally dont think its so necessary to add fluoride to tap water because of 2 reasons.

  1. Most people where Im from wouldnt drink tap water unless they were parched, broke and nowhere near a grocery store to buy the bottled kind.

  2. Most tap water is used for baths, showers, washing clothes, washing dishes, mopping the floor, etc. Very little, at least in my house, actually goes anywhere near a mouth.

If I might ask, where are you from that the water thereabouts is so undrinkable?

I`m in Canada. Here its not so much that the tap water is undrinkable, but moreso the fact that most people choose to drink the bottled kind. I drink both tap and bottled water, and in the winter, the water comes out of the tap almost ice cold.

But in any case, to my last point, most tap water is not used for drinking, therefore fluoridation of tap water, in my opinion, would be a waste of money, effort and time.

Huh. I don’t remember people being particularly averse to drinking tap water when I lived in Ottawa, lo these many years agon. I figured you were going to say you lived in Mexico, where I can tell you, people avoid drinking tap water if they can possibly help it…at least poor people do. Not sure what the rich folks do, but I presume they drink bottled…

-XT

At $1 a year per person (or $12 million for all of Ontario) it costs next to nothing while providing a basic level of dental protection for the youngest and poorest amongst us. And I’d like to see a cite for “majority of drinking water is of the bottled variety in Canada”. I’d hazard a guess that it isn’t more than 25%.

I’d like to see statistics on what percentage of the population uses bottled water exclusively for all cooking and making of beverages (i.e. juices and coffee). I suspect that’s a very limited number of people.

I’d also like to see some support for the idea that one can be allergic to fluoride. I thought allergies were your immune system’s reaction to proteins.

Or if it’s not really an allergy, I still don’t buy that your stomach gets squeezy when you drink it. I would wager that you couldn’t tell in a blinded test whether water contained fluoride or not.

Probably. I`m not saying I know the percentages. But from personal observation, I have noticed that many people who I work with will bypass the water fountain to go buy bottled water. I try to point out to them that they may be both buying a worse product than that offered from the tap, or even just bottled tap water.

I get qweezy alright. I have to be careful. And I`m apparently not alone.

As acknowledged by the Physicians’ Desk Reference, some individuals are hypersensitive to fluoride.

Hypersensitive reactions to fluoride have been reported for both topical fluorides & ingested fluorides. The largest, government-funded, clinical trial found that 1% of people ingesting 1 mg fluoride tablets exhibited allergic/hypersensitive reactions to fluoride.

Symptoms of allergic/hypersensitive reactions have been reported to include: skin rashes (e.g. dermatitis, urticaria, eczema); mouth lesions (canker sores); gastric distress; headache; joint pain; weakness; visual disturbances; and lethargy.

Some more anecdotes for you - I was raised on well water, and have the dental history as long as my leg to show for it (at 43, I’ve lost count of how many fillings I have, and have four crowns and a root canal on top of them). My husband had extra fluoride drops given to him by his parents, and at 40, he finally had his first filling. I know the plural of anecdote isn’t data, but you’ll pry my fluoridated water from my cold, dead hands.

itsme, people in Calgary going out of their way to buy bottled water just boggles my mind - we have glacier-fresh, extremely high quality water coming out of our taps here, and yet the marketing machine has convinced so many people that if it doesn’t come surrounded in plastic, it isn’t worth drinking.

Even according to this fluoride scare-mongering website, the National Research Council concluded in 2006 that there was insufficient evidence to support the claim that fluoridated water causes any hypersensitivity (allergic) reactions.

Other papers quoted on the website include a 50-year-old dental publication, and a review from a Dr. Spittle* of the “Dept. of Psychological Medicine” in New Zealand, in which the reviewer disputed the results of four previous reviews showing no fluoride-allergy connection. I note other examples in which people supposedly developed allergic reactions from fluoride-containing products, leading to questions about whether other components of these products could be responsible for any allergic reactions.
It appears that allergy to fluoridated water, if it exists at all, is extremely rare.

Not that this has stopped some folks from conjuring up reactions to fluoridated water. From the dentalwatch.org link I listed above:

“Once fluoridation has begun in a community, antis can resort to the “cause-of-all-evil” gambit – blaming fluoridation for everything that occurred after it started. An example of this tactic, one that backfired on opponents, took place in Cleveland on June 1, 1956 – when fluorides were to be added to the city’s water supply. That day, the phone calls began: “My goldfish have died.” “My African violets are wilting.” “I can’t make a decent cup of coffee.” “My dog is constipated.” Although the basis of such complaints is emotional rather than physical, this time fluoridation’s innocence was beyond question. Last-minute problems had delayed its start until July!”

Sorry about itsme1234 getting “qweezy” after drinking tap water, but I question whether that’s an allergic reaction.

*I hear that Dr. Spittle has a lucrative group practice with partners Dr. Hawk and Dr. Loogie.

I’ve been told that my allergy to shellfish has to do with the iodine they accumulate in their bodies.

You can’t compare the toxicity of heavy metals (such as lead) and inorganic metalloids (such as arsenic) to a non-metal ion (such as fluoride).

Guess what? Water is an industrial pollutant, too, (used in, among other applications, glass etching and the alluminum [sic] industry).

I actually work for a water company, and it just blows me away to hear comments like these. Unless you live in a third-world country, you have access to clean, safe, regulated drinking water that is actually piped into your house. You have a luxury that has only been available to a tiny fraction of humanity over the course of human history, shared only by Roman emperors and the like–clean, safe drinking water at your fingertips, accessible by any tap in your house.

So rather than drink the clean, highly regulated tap water that is analyzed and tested on a daily basis, you would prefer to purchase and transport bottled water only loosely regulated by the FDA (assuming you live in the U.S.). Not to mention the fact that many of the largest bottled water manufacturers get their water from public water supply sources.

Whatever… :rolleyes:

Let’s get some facts straight, dopes.

One of the ways of injecting the poison into water is sodium fluoride (NaF). When this is dissolved in water it changes immediately into hydrofluoric acid:
NaF + H2O -> HF + NaOH
Hydrofluoric is an extremely dangerous acid, used to dissolve glass. It can cause permanent blindness if introduced to the eye. The “waste product” associated with dissolving this poison in water is NaOH, that’s the same corrosive substance used in drain cleaner, often called the most hazardous of household products. (To fool the American people, the socialists have switched to Fluorosilicic acid and Sodium fluorosilicate, but both of these also change into hydrofluoric acid when mixed with drinking water.) Fluoride is also a key ingredient of Uranium hexafluoride, used by Soviets and the French in the manufacture of their atomic weapons.

An excellent documentary which tried to warn America about socialists injecting poison into drinking water was Doctor Strangelove. (Unfortunately, the ACLU and NSA found out about that documentary before it ever screened and managed to get Hollwood to hire Peter Sellers and transform it into a left-wing farce and thus disguise the warning.)

I’m surprised no one has yet mentioned that some governments, including Canada’s, require the addition of iodide to table salt. Iodine is also a very deadly poison.

If you’re going to get into facts, you might start with the fact that this is a reversible equilibrium reaction, more properly written as:

NaF (s) -----> Na[sup]+[/sup] (aq) + F[sup]-[/sup] (aq)

F[sup]-[/sup] (aq) + H[sub]2[/sub]O (l) <-----> HF (aq) + OH[sup]- [/sup](aq)

This reaction does not proceed very far to completion. The amount of HF and hydroxide produced is miniscule. I can calculate the concentrations, but it will take a second.

septimus, see post #4 above where Kobal2 has already mentioned the Strangelove documentary.