What should be in the drinking water...

[nilum]

First off, I am recovering from severe depression.

About two years ago I got drunk and slit my wrist in a motel room. I won’t go into all the gory details, but the cops found me and paramedics brought me to a hospital where I needed 150 stiches.

I was in a community hospital for several months. I was on a combination of Prozak and Lithium. Both became pretty hefty doses and I still take the Lithium. Currently I take 300MG twice daily, but was on 1000MG twice daily at one point and 50mg of Prozak.

While I was just starting the medication I had a negative reaction and became extremely depressed. At one point I had tried to reopen my wounds… which hurt like hell. I ended up being strapped down for almost a week until the medication took effect.

Over time I got use to it and became less depressed, but could tell it was hampering my creativity. I am a person who loves to draw and write… and I felt absolutely no desire to do anything. I wasn’t depressed, but I wasn’t exactly happy. Instead I was feeling quite numb.

I have tried several different medications with varying success. Usually once one stops working I switch back to a different one. I’ve experienced several seizures, which I never had until I started taking various medications. At one point I was so paranoid about having seizures that I stopped taking my Welbutrin cold-turkey… which resulted in… a seizure.

Since these medications are accumulated into the body over time (my psychiatrists words) I find it disturbing that prozak has been found in Britains drinking water. I find it even more disturbing that the US is considering putting lithium in drinking water to reduce suicides. I know lithium is pretty neutral. When I started to have negative reactions to the medications, it was more likely the prozak and not the lithium, but while on lithium I became much less active and put on a lot of weight. Even now that I am starting back on lithium after having been off of it for a while I feel more lethargic.

I think what’s most disturbing though is that we accept fluoride in drinking water as the norm when it also has chemical effects on the brain similar to lithium. I don’t believe at all that fluoride was introduced purely to reduce cavities. It’s well documented that Nazi’s used a form of fluoride on Jews in concentration camps because of fluorides known effect to cause docile behavior in other animals. Even if I am to believe that the naive intent of our government was to reduce cavities, the secondary result is a population more willing to give into authority.

Don’t believe that the effects are that dramatic? I was so freaked out about being in a mental hospital and was so freaked out about being strapped down that I became very paranoid about the orderlies, but as I continued to take the medication (apprehensively mind you) I became more and more willing to do what they asked of me.

Don’t think there is enough fluoride to have that effect? One thing my psychiatrist makes a point to tell me is that these medications accumulate in the body, and that even a small dose over time can have a large impact in the long run.

Moreover these chemicals can’t just be avoided by filtering your water like some suggest since they inevitably end up in the food and drink you buy from the store.

Also, why not introduce more into the water supply if fluoride was such a success. Why not try to introduce vitamins or minerals? Why is there now discussion of putting lithium into the drinking water.

Okay I’ll stop about my fluoride conspiracy theory. It’s not so much a conspiracy theory as a desire not to contaminate our water supply with dangerous chemicals like this.

While it’s true that drugs like lithium and prozak do help people who are depressed, and that many people around the world are becoming increasingly depressed. I think it’s pretty irresponsible and stupid to think that drugs are the answer to this problem. We should be looking for solutions to the root cause.

I mean am I the only one who has a problem with this? Does the fluoride in drinking water really have any real effect on our teeth? What would you add to water?

[nilum]

I wanted to add what I thought was the root cause… I tried to edit, but i took too long,

I think a lot of it comes down to the financial situations of most families.

Why aren’t we working on making life better for people instead of drugging them up until they stop giving a shit and do what they are told.

[XT]

Does the fluoride in drinking water really have any real effect on our teeth?

Yes…the statistics are pretty clear. Really, it’s not even a serious debate as to teeth anyway. It’s possible to have too much fluoride in the water (i.e. toxic levels), but this is by and large not usually an issue. However, it’s pretty much indisputable that fluoride in the water has a statistical effect on preventing tooth decay.

Why not try to introduce vitamins or minerals?

Probably because it wouldn’t be cost effective…or even effective, period. I don’t think that most of the vitamins and minerals that COULD be (economically) added to water would be water soluble, or could be added in effective concentrations to make it worthwhile to do. This is really a separate issue from adding fluoride, however.

-XT

[Palo_Verde]

When used appropriately, fluoride is a safe and effective agent that can be used to prevent and control dental caries. Fluoride has contributed profoundly to the improved dental health of persons in the United States and other countries. Fluoride is needed regularly throughout life to protect teeth against tooth decay.

So says the Center for Disease Control http://cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5014a1.htm

Fluoride reduces cavities up to 40%. That’s huge, and that’s important for public health. It should be in the water.

[FinnAgain]

LSD.

[DanBlather]

I find it even more disturbing that the US is considering putting lithium in drinking water to reduce suicides

Cite?

[fuzzypickles]

@Palo_Verde

Fluoride reduces cavities up to 40%. That’s huge, and that’s important for public health. It should be in the water.

But…but…what about our precious bodily fluids???

[nilum]

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/05/15/lithium-water-suicide.html

I can’t find the article i read before, but it’s based on these findings. I guess the government has talked about it on either the floor of the house or senate at least once. Maybe I’m wrong, or maybe I was hearing someone else suggest it.

–

As far as those statistics on fluoride. How do we know that it’s not just because people take better care of their teeth??

Was there a control group of people who were never exposed to fluoride through drinking water? I doubt it. How could they when everything is contaminated.

[nilum]

I wonder does drinking tap water everyday and not brushing prevent cavities? No.

Does brushing and not drinking/eating anything with fluoride prevent cavities? - Yes
(which means only eating foods and drinking drink which is cut off from our water supplies - which is impossible)

The statistics are based on people who brush regularly. The people who brush regularly don’t have cavities. The people who don’t have cavities. What’s in the drinking water has no effect.

[XT]

Straightdope article on the subject for anyone interested:

Oh, we’ve got a pretty fair idea. Fact is, like a lot of things (Tylenol and water come to mind), fluoride can be either good or bad for you depending on how much you get. In small amounts the stuff is definitely salubrious. Though a few holdouts still argue, most research I’ve seen credits fluoridation with the sharp drop in tooth decay seen throughout the developed world over the past 40 years. In the U.S., 67 percent of those drinking public water get fluoride in it and tooth decay has fallen 68 percent since the late 60s, leading the Centers for Disease Control to call water fluoridation one of the top ten public-health achievements of the 20th century. Too much of a good thing, on the other hand - and we’re talking milligrams per kilo of body weight, not gallons - and you’ve got problems, ranging from stained teeth and upset stomach to death.

Although fluoride’s contribution to healthy teeth had been suspected earlier, the guy chiefly responsible for getting people to focus on the usefulness of having it in drinking water is Dr. Frederick McKay, who in 1909 began investigating a tooth discoloration so common among residents of Colorado Springs that it was known as “Colorado brown stain.” After peering into the mouths of nearly 3,000 kids in the area and finding that 87 percent had stained teeth, McKay and colleagues went on to establish that (a) such teeth were unusually resistant to serious cavities and (b) the cause of both phenomena was the naturally high fluoride level in the local water supply. After further research showed that one part per million of fluoride in drinking water reduced tooth decay with minimal risk of stained teeth, Grand Rapids, Michigan, became the first city to artificially fluoridate its water in 1945. Thousands of other municipalities have done so since.

-XT

[theR]

Another very recent thread about flouride in drinking water: Fluoride in Drinking Water: Good? Bad? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board

[nilum]

Where are the studies about the impact fluoride has on the human nervous system?

[nilum]

Also again I feel those statistics are BS.

The people probably brush their teeth like most people do. I just don’t buy it.

Do a REAL study.

Get people to only drink fluoridated water and compare it to people who brush.

Obviously if you don’t brush you’re going to get cavities unless you have so much fluoride in your water that your teeth change color like those kids in colorado maybe, but obviously we don’t have that much in the water supply (thankfully).

[nilum]

Sorry to keep posting. I’d edit if I could, but there is a 5min limit.

I just wanted to post a PoV from another thread. I agree with this one completely:

Well, I’ll bite. I actually did quite a bit of research on this issue some years back, for my own edification. There actually ARE some valid, reasonable objections to fluoridated water supplies, and flouride in general. For the record, I examined a wide variety of sources, so I’m familiar with the so-called conspiracy theories as well as with the peer-reviewed studies and scientific facts.

Fluoride is a toxin, there is no debate about this. The only debate is how much is too much.
Fluoride falls above lead and just below arsenic wrt general toxicity, and is a cummulative toxin, as is lead. Yet the allowable levels for fluoride in drinking water are over 200 times those for lead, last I checked. ( 0.015 ppm for lead and 4.0 ppm for flouride).

Even at lower dosages, there are many who can potentially get too much, because tap water is not the only source.

Many canned foods and bottled juices/beverages contain fluoride, as do most dental care products of course. It also occurs naturally (in its natural form, which differs from the form added to water and dental products, ftr) in some foods, the quantity heing highly variable depending on the type of food and where it was grown. (Colorado and Texas, to name 2 areas, have fairly high levels in the soil. Spinach, for instance, contains among the higher levels of naturally occuring fluoride, as does black tea).

Further, fluoride is an industrial pollutant (used in, among other applications, glass etching and the alluminum industry). Depending upon your location, you are exposed to varying levels through air, water, and soil contamination.

Perhaps the biggest variable has to do with differences in voulme of consumption/exposure relative to body mass. Some people consume far more water (or other flouride containing foods or beverages) than others. Children are far more likely to get much higher doses relative to their body mass, both because they are smaller but because they tend to consume more bottled juices as well as to injest more toothpaste and even be given fluoride tablets at home or school.

Ingestion of toothpaste is a common cause of poisoning in children, and a single tube can result in death (and has). Short of that, over-exposure can result in permanently damaged teeth (fluorosis, characterized by yellow or brown discolorations and fragility) and other symptoms of accute poisoning. Why tubes now carry a warning label…and why, imo, childrens’ toothpaste in enticing flavors like bubblegum should be banned! Yes, kids WILL eat it.

There is no evidence that ingesting fluoride past the 7 or so years of age has any beneficial effects on dental health, yet everyone is dosed. One of the documented effects of excessive fluoride consumption is damage to the skeletal system (brittle bones), and yet the elderly, who are at higher risk for this condition and stand to gain no benefit in terms of dental health, are dosed as well.

Other known results of long-term, higher dose fluoride exposure include bone and reproductive cancers.

It is, imo, simply irresponsible to attempt to deliver medication via the public water supply. Not only can the dose not be controlled, but it amounts to forced medication and carries risks, esp. to those more suseptible (risks which, again, cannot be controlled for due to the blanket nature of the practice.)

It is also debatable how much if any benefit to dental health exists, even when used at proper doses, and the early studies used to promote fluoridation have been challenged due to their methodology.

Anecdotally, my late husband and I were both raised with fluoridated water and toothpaste and we both had/have a mouth full of fillings. I didn’t STOP getting cavities until I was in my 20s and STOPPED using/drinking fluoride. I also have some brown discolorations on some molars due to fluorosis (diagnosed by a dentist).

Neither of my kids have ever drunk or used fluoride (aside from the infrfequent topical treatments at dental visits, which I allowed once they were old enough not to swallow any) and their teeth are great. My son, at almost 18, has had 2 tiny carries, both minor enough to be air-abraded, and my daughter, at 10, has had 1, in a baby tooth, which did not require treatment.

Our city does not fluoridate and I am glad…I do not want medication, ANY medication, in my drinking water. I am quite capable of procuring and using fluoride containing products if I choose to, and the schools here offer fluoride tablets to all students (unless parents sign off, which I do).

-InterestedObserver

[XT]

@nilum

Where are the studies about the impact fluoride has on the human nervous system?

They are a mere google search away. Look…it’s not like adding fluoride is a new thing. They have been studying this for decades, and, as noted in Cecil’s article, first started twigging to all this in 1909…over a hundred years ago!

 Also again I feel those statistics are BS.

Based on what? A feeling you have, or do you have something to back up your supposition that flies in the face of nearly overwhelming evidence against your position?

The people probably brush their teeth like most people do. I just don’t buy it.

Yeah…and vaccines don’t work either. People are just healthier today because they eat regularly at McDonald’s…or something.

Do a REAL study.

Again, they have been looking at this for decades…nearly a century. What do you have for evidence that they are all wrong and you are right? Besides your gut feeling on the matter?

Get people to only drink fluoridated water and compare it to people who brush.

Try reading the article I linked too…they first twigged to fluoride based on a population group that wasn’t brushing regularly at all (it being 1909 and all), yet had a statistically high lack of tooth decay. There have been numerous studies done on this, and it’s pretty much not in dispute at this point. The only real debate is what OTHER possible effects fluoride might have, and the exact concentration that should be taken.

-XT

[DanBlather]

@nilum

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/05/15/lithium-water-suicide.html

I can’t find the article i read before, but it’s based on these findings. I guess the government has talked about it on either the floor of the house or senate at least once. Maybe I’m wrong, or maybe I was hearing someone else suggest it.

–

As far as those statistics on fluoride. How do we know that it’s not just because people take better care of their teeth??

Was there a control group of people who were never exposed to fluoride through drinking water? I doubt it. How could they when everything is contaminated.

You do realize that many places in the US do not have fluoride, so we can compare them with those that do.

Perhaps you should get a professional’s take on it soon.

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@nilum

I wonder does drinking tap water everyday and not brushing prevent cavities? No.

Does brushing and not drinking/eating anything with fluoride prevent cavities? - Yes
(which means only eating foods and drinking drink which is cut off from our water supplies - which is impossible)

The statistics are based on people who brush regularly. The people who brush regularly don’t have cavities. The people who don’t have cavities. What’s in the drinking water has no effect.

I didn’t brush for years as a kid, and never got a cavity. And I drank tap water regularly.

But when our Purity of Essence is at stake, dammit, cavities are a small sacrifice to pay!

[nilum]

Here is the problem

All these studies are based on uncontrollable stats. What I mean is these people in the study are usually asked if they brush or not and might lie. Also how much contact they have with fluoridated products is relatively unknown.

If someone who lived in a part of the country without fluoridated water and was asked do you brush regularly… he is probably going to say yes, regardless if it is true. You are going to get skewed results.

Also even though the local supply might not contain fluoride that doesn’t mean he isn’t getting a good amount from products outside his area. There are various products which contain fluoride because other cities do have fluoride in the water. So to say that a community is completely cut off is rubbish.

In fact I know quite a few people who do not drink tap water at all and it wouldn’t surprise me if there were many who didn’t. So this brings up a few points.

If I say I don’t drink tap water and my teeth are fine, you could say that you get it from other sources and that’s why your teeth are healthy.

If there is a person who is part of some survey to determine if fluoridated water is effective he might say my water isn’t fluoridated, I brush my teeth three times a day, and I still get cavities. People in support are going to cite that as evidence, but i would say this:
He’s still exposed to fluoride in other foods and drinks. He’s probably lying about brushing. Meaning? Your results are inconclusive.

Show me a study that has an actual group of people, including a control group.

Have a group required to brush every day but no other exposure to fluoride. Have a group required to only drink fluoridated water. Have a group required to do both. Have a group that does neither. Over a long enough period that cavities would appear.

I guarantee you know one has done this study yet. It would show that the groups that brush are the only ones that don’t form cavities. There would be no difference between the group who brushed with or without the additional fluoridated water. Meaning? Fluoridated water does nothing.

[nilum]

Try reading the article I linked too…they first twigged to fluoride based on a population group that wasn’t brushing regularly at all (it being 1909 and all), yet had a statistically high lack of tooth decay. There have been numerous studies done on this, and it’s pretty much not in dispute at this point. The only real debate is what OTHER possible effects fluoride might have, and the exact concentration that should be taken.

-XT

But if they had enough fluoride in the water to discolor their teeth… obviously that’s not the same thing. There is a reason we don’t have THAT much in the water supply.

I am talking about now. Modern dental hygiene vs fluoride in the water.

A REAL study. Not a study based on over-fluoridated water supplies during a time of poor dental hygiene.

Pretty much I am saying that any usefulness it might have had in the past is gone. If there even was any.

[nilum]

I found this article for scientific america which apparently shows that new studies do show that fluoridated water might be a problem:

Second Thoughts on Fluoride

unfortunately I have no subscription.

Maybe someone can summarize?