Folk Music

One of my earliest memories, dating from the Kennedy administration, is Saturday nights when me and my little sister were freshly bathed and pajama’d and sat in front of the TV to watch Hootenanny. Too bad Pete Seeger was blacklisted. :frowning: Only performers with the HUAC seal of approval were allowed on.

“All music is folk music. I never heard no horse sing a song.”
—Louis Armstrong

“Folk music is not an acoustic guitar–that’s not where the heart of it is. I use the word ‘folk’ in reference to punk music and rap music. It’s an attitude, it’s an awareness of one’s heritage, and it’s a community. It’s subcorporate music that gives voice to different communities and their struggle against authority.”
—Ani DiFranco

“She’s a humdinger folk singer.” (Who gets the reference?)

I was cool with Dylan playing electric rock ‘n’ roll.

I named myself after Joan Baez, sort of. In the original Spanish, Báez is accented on the first syllable.

I play acoustic 12-string. When played in a karsilama or zeybek 9/8 rhythm and in the Phrygian mode, it sounds a lot like a Turkish folk instrument called saz, which also uses pairs of strings in octaves.

Buoying
Up
My
Post

Dylan, from the Album “The Freewheelin’ Bob Dylan”, the song, I believe track 2, “I Shall be Free”.

“Well, I took me a woman late last night,
I’s three-fourths drunk, she looked uptight.
She took off her wheel, took off her bell,
Took off her wig, said, “How do I smell?”
I hot-footed it . . . bare-naked . . .
Out the window!”

Did you see the recent PBS thing about Dylan’s early years? I was, well, not horrified but certainly amused by the British audience’s reaction to the Electric Bob… Geeze, you’d think he’d come on stage and called them minging northern pansies…

Hey Johanna,
Pete is one of my heroes and one of the few I have met. I am a lifetime member of Monmouth Country Friends of Clearwater. We are the “daughter” group of Hudson River Clearwater that Pete founded in 1969. I have met with him a few times, including a sloop club congress where it was Pete and about 12 of us activists. We were on the Wavertree before it was open to the public because Pete could do that.
He still makes the Hudson River Revival every year. He is a great man.
BTW: This is a great folk festival. If you live anywhere near NYC or NJ these are two fun folk festivals. The Revival is especially excellent. Arlo shows up a lot.
Ours is in Asbury. We have had Pete, Bruce (I know not Folk) and many others.

Jim

Hey Jim, that’s great, Pete is an authentic American hero in my book for standing up to repression for so many years without flinching.

Whifton, that’s odd… has my memory blown a circuit, or did you hear a different version? A live recording or bootleg? The way I remembered that verse on Freewheelin’ went like this:

She took off her wig and her onion gook
Turned to me and said “How do I look”
I was high-flyin’ bare naked
Out the window

Well, your OP was pretty much self-contained. You could summarize it as “I like folk music.” Not so much, “do you like folk music too?”
I like the acoustic singer/songwriter types, but I’m not red hot on the heavy-handed political moralizing (e.g. “Things suck in El Salvador and it’s all our fault.”) folk music.

Ani DiFranco doesn’t * really * need to record every song that pops into her head. She’s got to be well into her 30’s now, which means the angry young woman pose has gotten old.
Seems to be a lull on the folk music scene now. Not a lot of new compelling artists and the line up at the Newport “Folk” Festival this year was mighty lame (The Pixies were the headliners?)

Of all the quotes, I’ll take the Louie Armstrong as the closest to the truth. The Ani DiFranco quote is annoyingly over-intellectualized tripe – much like reading a Trotzky Newspaper.

Folk music is, to me, music that is very personal and rooted in a cultural tradition (ie. ethnic). I think of it as music that can be played best without the aid of electricity (though it can be), and can create an instant cultural awareness between musician and audience.

And just so no one thinks I hate Ani DiFranco – I actually listen to her, just don’t have a lot of patience for posturing politicizing of music.

I guess you didn’t vote for Bob Roberts, huh?

Do Simon and Garfunkel count?

I grew up listening to Peter, Paul and Mary. My mom had their albums and I memorized them all as a child. That’s really all I know about folk music but I like what I know.

I sure do like Nanci Griffith. Yup. Her Other Voices, Other Rooms albums are wonderful - they’re filled with interpretations of classic folk songs (and singer/songwriter songs) done by modern folkies (along with Nanci). Many of her own albums are pretty great, too.

I definitely was a Peter, Paul and Mary baby, as well as Simon and Garfunkel (as well as other non-folk musicians).

About the Ani DeFranco quote; I think there are elements of truth to it, but it’s a much more intellectual view of music than actually applies to popular genre, IMHO.

I’ve read scholarly discussion about rap, for example, as folk, as it comes from the ‘folk,’ and speaks of cultural and popular concerns.

However, the thread folk music follows in the American musical tapestry is distinct from rap, at least from contemporary, popularized rap (I admit I know little about the genre).

By DeFranco’s definition, any self-aware, pre-successful musical group could be defined as folk.

Mm… Good Sunday morning music. I do enjoy some folk music, too. It’s my parents’ fault: they had Joan Baez records around, and Odetta, and such. (No Dylan, though.)

There are some great, great artists out there.

I used to be a Pete Seeger fan; his big double album with Arlo Guthrie was a favorite from my teenage years in the 70s. There was one song in particular from that album, called “Three Rules Of Discipline And the Eight Rules of Attention.” It was the catchiest damn tune, written for the People’s Army, Mao era. In toe-tappin’ cadence, it laid out the rules of behavior for Mao’s soldiers, but Pete Seeger just whistled it.

Sometime later, at school and rummaging through my high school locker, I started absent-mindedly whistling the tune. I shut my locker and turned around, and an Asian girl I didn’t know gave me the dirtiest look I’ve ever been on the receiving end of, before or since. I was so ashamed, I could never listen to ol’ Pete again.

Ah well. My sister is pretty prominent in the local (Northern Virginia) folk scene, so I keep some contact with it. Outside of John Prine, pretty much all the folksingers I like are local.

Sheesh, now you got me wondering… It’s probably a conflation of the original, my mother’s prodigious bootleg collection, several concerts, and a few live recordings. I’d go and track my CD down but it’s still in a box someplace (moving… PFAGH!).

Krokodil, think of the reaction you could have gotten by whistling “Sailing the Seas Depends on the Helmsman, Making Revolution Depends on Chairman Mao Thought.” I heard that was a catchy melody too, a hit record. Or “The East is Red” (best pun in a song title ever). My favorite Red Chinese tune will always be “Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy)” just because of Brian Eno’s version. I don’t think Red Detachment of Women ever got an American production, did it? Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right?

I haven’t been to Newport for several years. You might want to check out the Boston Folk Festival next year. It’s long over now, but there will be another next September. I went to the Sunday concert, and saw Redbird, Lori McKenna, Janis Ian and Patty Griffin. (A HUGE Patty Griffin fan here :smiley: )

It is sponsored by WUMB, and you can listen live at that link. Listener supported, and well worth it in my mind.

One singer I can recommend on the contemporary folk scene is Hamell on Trial. This guy is incisively satirical, hilarious, and bursting with manic energy. He opened for Ani’s tour a couple years ago. Hamell is like punk rock played on a solo acoustic guitar. I loved his song “Don’t Kill” where God says “What part of ‘Thou shalt not kill’ don’t you understand?” After he was badly injured in a car crash, he wrote a song about how much he loved the “downs” they put him on. He has a mischievous sense of humor.

I don’t mean to threadshit, but IMO, real folk music as a force is dead. Sure, there’s a genre called Folk Music, but it has nothing to do with the folk. It’s simply another genre to be exploited. At one time, there were lots of real folk greats (people who started out playing music particular to their folk group: bluesmen, hillbilly singers, etc.) who were informing the music of the US and the world, but those people are all pretty much dead or out of the scene. All that stuff exploded onto the scene and was promptly beaten to death by Dylan, Simon and Garfunkel, Peter, Paul, and Mary, etc. (and I say this as someone who LOVES Dylan and Simon and Garfunkel.) The rotten, violated corpse of the music is still being propped up and paraded around by the likes of Ani DiFranco, Dar Williams, etc.

But don’t be fooled. No way it’s folk music. It’s not connected to any folk or cultural tradition. It’s simply another commercial genre.

The only type of folk music I can think of that’s actually alive, vital, and still growing (in the US) is rap/hip hop. It came out of a particular culture, and is still being informed by living pioneers of its tradition.

Rock and roll was folk music, but no more…and modern Folk Music certainly…ain’t.

For serious? There’s a lot of really talented, compelling and outstanding artists beginning to make a name for themselves these days, and I find more than a few of them to be a lot more interesting than a lot of the people that exploded into popularity with the singer-songwriter revival in the late 80’s and into the 90’s. The difficulty is that very few of them are in the limelight, such as that is on the folk scene. Unfortunately, folk festival managements are doing a pretty poor job of promoting the new and interesting artists, choosing instead to focus on the established and familiar, not the new and exciting. That’s not to say that the established artists aren’t wonderful, but it gets kind of tiresome to see Dar Williams and Greg Brown and The Nields and Ani DiFranco and the Kennedys on the festival bills year after year after year in favor of the upstarts, who get relegated to “emerging artist showcases” and five minutes of stage time each. Don’t get me wrong, I think that Greg Brown and the Nields are wonderful, and I particularly love the Kennedys (who are just fantastic people to chat with), but it’s hard to find space for the new kids on the block.

Ogre, I’m going to have to disagree with you. Folk music, in my opinion, has less to do these days with the musical traditions of a culture and more to do with the ethic of folk music, which is music FOR people BY people. Those musical traditions are important though, and it’s good to see them being preserved by modern and young (and successful) artists like Crooked Still and the Mammals, and Nickel Creek. I understand that you understand that the ethic is dead, too, but I don’t think that’s true. The folk scene maintains one of the strongest commitments to independent music of any music “scene,” out there, and I think that they’re working to strike a balance that is difficult to find. The problem is that, these days, music needs to sell in order to heard at all, and it needs to make money for the performers in order for them to have the time and luxury of traveling around and playing it for people. It’s difficult to find the line between dying out and selling out. Some people manage to find that line, some don’t.

It sounds, Ogre, like the problem your having is that folk music (in this country, at least) has become such a mishmash of subcultures and subgenres that it can’t really be defined in terms of a particular culture or musical style anymore. I still think that it’s a valuable term, so I fall back on the ethical definition: by the people, for the people, about the music, not about the money (although, in rare cases, it can make you lots of money). Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie are folk music. So was Leadbelly. Chuck Berry was folk music. The Clash were folk music. Some rap/hip-hop is folk music (I would argue that the rap scene has become FAR more grossly commercialized and turned into a product than folk music). Whatever the reasons for your conclusions, I disagree. Folk music is not dead. Folk music as a truly meaningful mechanism of social change and power is in serious trouble, but I think that has at least as much to do with the successful turning of music into a product - the very thing that means that folk artists MUST be able to sell their music, or die. It’s a more cynical world out there these days, but we’re doing what we can.