So your plan is to just get mowed down by the shooter because you’re afraid you might get shot?
Same as others above. Gather/hide the unarmed and take a defensive position. Hopefully one that will allow me some element of a surprise if the shooter happens my way.
Once the police arrive that thing is getting concealed again and I’m staying with the people who know I’m friendly.
Holding a gun while not holding a badge in an active shooters AO when the cops show up is a seriously bad idea.
As was mentioned in the other thread, some of the CCW holders don’t actively carry; having a permit makes it easier to go to/from the range w/o needing to separate gun from ammo & lock everything up enroute &/or stop for something as simple as milk on the way home from the range. A nitpick yes, but not all of your CCW holders will be armed.
A couple of thoughts against doing anything if I had a gun on me. Let’s add some color to the scenario - I’m in a mall, on the second story. I can see the gunman on the first story, I can hear the gunfire, I can see the muzzle flash, I know he’s a deranged lunatic taking out random people. I can take a couple of steps back, enter the department store & keep going right thru it to an exit, conveniently the one where my car is parked OR I can shoot him in the side/back. Yes, taking that shot would undoubtedly save some lives & the public would call me a hero but after the dust settles am I getting arrested for (attempted) murder because I shot a person who was not an immediate threat to me in the back? (Sadly, a question that is probably worth knowing an answer to.)
Scenario 1a) I’ve taken shelter in a clothes rack. Gunman is coming towards me; but won’t see me in my concealed position unless I call attention to myself like draw/fire. Do I have much confidence in my ability to shoot accurately & hit my target w/ that much adrenaline coursing thru my system? I’ve done some high intensity shooting where my heart rate was in Zone 5 (biathlons); that is much tougher than a ‘regular’ day at the range & like I said in another post, those targets don’t shoot back if I miss.
I’ve been a first responder, I’ve saved lives, my goal is to go home at the end of the day, not to the morgue, not to the hospital, not to a jail cell. Dung Beetle has it right, run, hide, fight.
You would not face legal liability for shooting a spree killer. You are legally entitled to defend another by using as much force as they are entitled to use. Since the shooter is trying to kill bystanders, you can take him out (and should, if you are in the 2nd floor while they are mowing down the first floor!).
I am probably not going to seek him/them out; more hunker in place and stay aware of the situation. I haven’t faced this situation yet but I believe its what I would do.
For shooting it depends on how clear of a field of fire I have both to the target (you have ceased to be a person IMHO once you start taking lives) and beyond and who is at risk. Aim at me and I have a clear shot and you are dead; aim at me and I don’t have a clear shot I may play the odds and wait. Now the real moral question for me becomes — the target is aiming at several kids or a group of people and I can take it out but ------- at risk of hitting a single innocent person in the background or between me and the target. I hope to never learn what I would do in that case. I think I would trust my training and practice and try but I just don’t know.
My only duty is to my family, so I would remain in the safe spot with them unless forced to act by the shooter’s approach. It’s impossible to know exactly, but if children were nearby I would encourage them to stay with/behind us if possible. Other adults have the option to arm themselves, so I’ve no obligation to take risks on their behalf.
Ohio CCW permit holder here. I have carried daily (except when I was traveling in a places where it was illegal) for four years. As I said in Czarcasm’s thread, since I began to carry a gun I have spent some time thinking about situations in the news and what role a person like me could play in them. The conclusion I have reached is that in most crowd situations, I would be unlikely to do any good by using my gun. In the situation you describe in the OP, my action list would be identical to Dung Beetle’s. If it got to a point where I was hiding or fleeing and the shooter and I close to each other, him with his weapon aimed at me, if I could make sure in a second that there was no one behind him, I would shoot.
My training, practice and mind-set as a CCW holder are focused on self-defense, not heroism or vigilantism. I am licensed to carry the gun, not to use it. There are other laws around using a gun, and civilian use of a gun is generally going to subject one to more intense involvement with the legal system than I am willing to undertake lightly.
Others have mentioned, and every CCW holder ought to think deeply about, the issues of identifying the “good guys” and “bad guys” in these situations. The two worst scenarios that I think about are shooting a plain-clothes cop or armed civilian like me, or being shot myself simply because I am seen with a gun.
MN CCW here.
With only the info provided, almost certainly not. Way too many unknown variables.
- my weapon is for my protection, not yours. I’m not law enforcement.
- always evade/flee whenever possible. (MN is a “duty to retreat” state, unless I’m in my home, and even then I may still have to flee).
- weapon is absolute last resort.
With the caveat that I can’t know how I’d actually act in such a situation, what with the adrenaline and fight-or-flight and all, I think I’d follow the active-shooter training I’ve received, which goes like this:
- Avoid (that is, move away from the shooter, as far as possible)
- Deny (prevent the shooter from entering your area, via locking doors, barricades, etc)
- Fight
Handgun vs. centerfire rifle in an open area is a very lopsided matchup in favor of the rifle; see also the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, where a man with a Ruger Mini-14 was able to devastate eight FBI agents armed with handguns and shotguns.
If forced to fight, the best you could hope for is a close-range encounter where the shooter doesn’t know you’re there until you start firing.
Assuming I am either not with someone, or that I could get whoever I’m with to a safe place, I’d stalk and engage, if the opportunity reasonably presented itself.
However: former law enforcement, former tactical team leader.
If I have the opportunity, I get to cover, I get out the cell phone and call 911 and stay on the phone with them, giving as much info as I can to the dispatcher to relay to the officers.
In the situation described, if I could get a clear shot at the shooter, I would take it. I have the element of surprise on my side and can take a second to make sure I have a good sight picture before I start to put rounds on target. If I do choose to fire, I immediately tell 911 that I have fired shots and what the result was. If the shooter goes down, I stay covered until law enforcement is on the scene and the dispatcher has told them who I am and where I am. I will secure the weapon before contacting the officers, so that I have empty hands.
Common sense.
I can shoot relatively accurately. If I were cc, I don’t think I could actually bring my self to pull the trigger on another human. I am, though a Mother tiger and would protect my child or die trying.
I was with my MIL when she got mugged on the passengers side of my car, I was in the process of opening my drivers side door when I heard her scream, I, on autopilot went around the front of the car, she went down to the ground, the mugger whipped around and faced me, and punched me square in the mouth, I went down like a bag of rocks. Lights out. I woke up in the er. With a broken jaw. Adrenaline is what made me face down a criminal. It was a bad idea. He still got away with my MIL purse.
I learned my lesson.