Food Fadists - STFU

The BBQ Pit
461

You have a really weird idea of what hispanic blue collar workers’ lives are like. Some of them are from south of the border. Lots of them were born here. They buy food from supermarkets, live in low cost but hygenic housing, eat Mcdonald’s and do other American things like not get hookworm infections as children and not die from simple bacterial infections due to lack of penicillin. But there probably is something to the hygiene hypothesis. Which is why the white blue collar worker allergy to middle aged white woman allergy ratio is only 1:50. (The crotchety old white man to middle aged white woman ratio approaches infinity, as nearly as I can tell)

That said, people can certainly have multiple allergies. They can and do. It’s not really all that uncommon. Hypochondriacs and annoying, dramatic people just outnumber them somewhat.

The MSG thing cracks me up. “I have a documented MSG sensitivity!” Yeah, but doctors document a lot of dumb shit on a regular basis. Plenty of people waking around with bands that say Allergy: epinephrine. I suppose it’s possible that someone could have a sensitivity to an amino acid but why Chinese food? Would it be okay if the cook used some dashi broth instead of MSG out of a can? Japanese food cooking uses dashi and kombu in almost everything, that okay? How about sushi, wrapped in seaweed? Aged cheese? Probably one of the highest concentrations of glutamate of any food. Tomatoes? Between the wheat, tomatoes, and cheese a pizza contains more glutamate than a bowl of fried rice. I had a vegetarian lecture me about glutamate when she was would regularly eat seitan, which about a third glutamate by weight. Most fast food, but especially KFC, contains plenty of MSG. All of these are blown away by packaged food/soups (which have an unbelievable amount, multiple grams). But no one ever says, “I have a true medical MSG sensitivity. So I don’t eat cheese, KFC, or convenience food”. It’s always Chinese food of all things. It’s not like there wasn’t some interest in the topic at one time. Attempts at reproducing it were generally unsuccessful. It never got to the point where anyone could figure out a semi plausible mechanism. They just changed the name to hydrolized whatever protein and people shut the hell up about it.

462

Yeah, I sure do. Look at my location. I gotta tell you, I sure do get weird ideas when the neighbors to the north and northeast of me are Mexican immigrants (or rather, the adults are, the kids were born here), the families to the east (two families in one house) speak Spanish, but not English (so I can’t communicate with them very well, my Spanish is not very good), and about a third of my friends are Hispanic, though not necessarily blue-collar. A lot of them are business people or professionals.

Some of the Hispanics that I know shop in the mainstream/Anglo supermarkets, more of them tend to shop at the Hispanic markets. Some eat at McDonald’s on a regular basis, more of them eat at the small local Mexican/TexMex restaurants that we’ve got all over, some eat at both. Me, I eat at the local Mexican/TexMex restaurants, because I think the food is tastier.

463

Right. And result in the assumption that anyone claiming multiple allergies is a nutcase until they collapse with anaphylaxis. THEN you take them seriously.

Actually… yes, My Sister the Sensitive really does avoid not only “Chinese food” but also cheese, any form of fast food, dashi, kombu, packaged/processed food, anything fermented/brewed, etc. She more or less lives on lean grilled meat and steamed fresh vegetables.

As to why MSG et al is a problem she doesn’t know. Then again, she doesn’t call it an allergy because it’s not one in the classic sense. She eats this stuff it triggers her heart arrythmia. Why? I sure as hell don’t know. But given the situation is serious enough she’s had a pacemaker and defibrillator installed and a few months ago spent a week at the Cleveland Clinic with other doctors scratching their heads over this I am reasonably sure this isn’t just hysteria of some sort. Just because we don’t know the “why” behind something medical, or the mechanism involved, doesn’t mean it’s nonexistent. She eats anything above a very low level of glutamate her heart losses its normal rhythym-keeping abilities. Why? I don’t think anyone knows. Meanwhile, though, maybe it’s a good idea to simply not eat glutamate even if that can be a hassle to actually avoid.

Of course, you will likely never know about all that if you meet her in real life - she just categorically doesn’t eat in restaurants anymore, packs her own lunch, and doesn’t whine about the situation (well, in private to family, but that’s arguably as it should be).

It’s the ones with the whining and the woo-woo explanations that you see/hear and which make the big impression. And who make life miserable for those with actual problems that aren’t imaginary but are unusual.

464

[HIJACK] Broomstick please warn your sister to be cautious if she goes into hardware stores. They sometimes have magnetic brooms displayed handle down, so the heads are bunched up and right where someone with a pacemaker does not want them. A friend of mine had a very scary experience at a hardware store a couple of years back. [/HIJACK]

That is all.

465

I’m a dentist and have people tell me all the time that they are allergic to epinephrine. I congratulate them on being alive since there body produces it every day. Also known as adernaline.

466

Ah, let me tell you about the time I was admitted to the hospital and stated that one of my allergies was to oranges. JUST oranges, mind you, not any other fruit (they give me hives).

It got entered into my record as “citrus allergy”. This made getting ANYTHING fruit absolute hell. I couldn’t figure out a way to get it corrected, either, no one was listening to me. So, no doubt someone there thinks I’m a lying hysterical hypochondriac because at one point I asked for grapefruit juice but oh, wait, you’re supposed to have a citrus allergy!

:rolleyes:

Then they tried to feed me orange jello. I was huffily informed “there’s no real fruit juice in there!”. Well, excuse me for double-checking!

467

Most chronic, degenerative diseases that people on highly-processed, grain-heavy, factory-farmed diets have are curable, or at least manageable, on a better diet.

The most convincing evidence of that is that these diseases are largely nonexistent in societies that still eat their traditional diets, like traditional Inuit groups, remote Central and South American tribes, remote African tribes, and a few other groups.

The reason I don’t want to have this discussion with you, here, now is because you now will ask me for multiple peer-reviewed cites on the fact that these groups are largely free of these diseases. Then, after about a year of going back and forth on that, you’ll be ready to start looking at cites on peer-reviewed in-lab studies. Then, after 4 years of that, you’ll be ready for the anecdotal data. After about 5 years of that, you’ll be ready to actually start studying the issue yourself, instead of begging me for a cite every hour of every day.

And all that is assuming that you even bother to continue discussing the issue at all with me, at any given point along that very long timeline.

No thanks. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, wrote the book, and very fucking bored with the whole idea of the thing.

I’ve been arguing, studying, and posting about nutrition online since 1998, and am very done with the whole “take a newbie from zero to knowledgeable” thing. Because it rarely works, and is extremely boring. I get tired of covering ground I’ve covered a dozen times or more. It’s not even about teaching a subject. That might be interesting. It’s about simply pointing out facts, and waiting while someone comes up with yet another ignorant question, that they’d never ask if they had already done the necessary reading.

468

If this is true, then you really suck at it. If I’d been devoting myself to a subject online like that for fourteen freakin’ years, I’d have dozens of the best references, annotated and ready to go, answering every conceivable question. It shouldn’t be any trouble at all to give somebody like Broomstick what she’s asking for there.

469

I don’t have dozens, I have hundreds.

There’s enough data that it would take 6-8 months to give it a quick once-over.

The thing is, most (though not all) Americans don’t even know that people on traditional diets rarely suffer from degenerative ‘modern’ diseases like diabetes, arthritis, stroke, heart disease, etc.. They also don’t realize that, even when these people DO suffer from these diseases, they are pretty much always ‘late onset’. OTOH, these problems are quite common in people in their 40s, 50s, and even earlier in the USA.

Without that basic knowledge, it takes at least 6-8 months of reading to convince most people, and usually more.

Am I really supposed to wait 8 months or more while you do the appropriate background research? That’s not fair to me, dude.

The endeavor is very low-yield for me, anyway. Few people have the desire/ability to stick it out for the whole time period, and even when they do, so what? What did I gain? A warm, fuzzy feeling? Fuck that. 1000 tries for one success is not worth it.

470

I said “pick one”, not list a half dozen.

No, actually I won’t because, despite your kneejerk assumptions, I am not a “newbie” to those facts. Of course diet is not the sole factor at work in such traditional societies which tend to have members much more physically active, and higher infant/child mortality rates which might be eliminating some people prone to chronic disease very early in life. Not to mention that treatment for such disorders in “traditional” environments largely suck when they exist at all so you won’t have chronic sufferers but rather acute cases that would tend to progress rapidly to fatality.

In other words, you can’t back up your claim with even the first cite, not even one, despite all those years of research. Again, why should I take YOUR word over that of anyone else on the internet? Especially when you can’t be bothered to back up your claims?

You’re just another blowhard with a thin veneer of superficial knowledge who wants people to take your word as some sort of authority without making any effort whatsoever to back up your statements. In other words, just another know-it-all with no real credentials, not even self-taught ones. You remind me of the folks who claim sharks don’t get cancer when, in fact, the can and do.

Oh, and by the way –

The plural of “anecdote” is not “data”. The fact that you can make such a statement with a straight face shows you are in no way a scientist. I suspect you’re more the sort who jumps to a conclusion then seeks support for it while ignoring anything to the contrary but since you’re also self-confessed lazy I guess we’ll never know for sure.

471

Only idiots are every ready for anecdotes.

472

I’ve noticed this as well, not in America but outside. Food allergies do exist don’t get me wrong(and a six year old boy who eats his first meal of shrimp and says his throat feels small and odd I doubt is “faking”) but they don’t exist at the level you see in the USA. You don’t see people with a list of things they are “allergic” to that don’t even make sense, allergic to cooked food?!

473

Oh, I meant site in my above post. By the way, courtesan’s reply.

474

To your first point, you’re wrong. These tribes immediately start getting the early-onset versions of diabetes, heart disease, etc. as soon as they switch to Westernized foods. There aren’t people dying of these early-onset diseases in those societies, because they just don’t GET the early-onset versions of those diseases. THIS IS WHY I don’t want to discuss this in depth with you. You don’t know this already, and it might take a YEAR or more to convince you. How is that worth my time?

Exercise does play a role, but I’d say it’s no more than 20-30%. Diet is the rest. If you think that’s not true, then why aren’t professional and Olympic athletes living well into their 90s and 100s? Their longevity, if anything, is LESS than the average person’s. The simple fact is that heavy exercise damages your body, over the long term. It’s moderate exercise that increases health and longevity.

As to your point about anecdotes, this is yet ANOTHER reason I don’t want to discuss this with you. I am a field researcher…I experiment with diet personally all the time, I participate heavily in message boards where other people are also experimenting, and I’ve travelled to visit traditional tribes in remote areas. There’s relatively little data on all this, because there’s so little funding. You can wait 15-20 years or more for a study to come out, or you can just start reading the message boards, pay attention to what seems to be working for people, as well as what DOESN’T, and experiment on your own. This is the quickest way to find the facts in this area, because the peer-reviewed research is so spotty and poorly-funded.

You want studies? Multiple peer-reviewed ones? There are some, but probably not enough to convince you, and CERTAINLY not enough peer-reviewed studies of traditional tribes. There never will be, because there’s just no funding. So basically, unless you want to put up the money to fund them…

475

One of the reasons that people in the US have a higher rate of allergies is the lack of germs in the everyday environment. The human immune system goes fucking haywire when it doesn’t get enough germs to fight off. The rest of the world is a dirty rathole, in terms of the amount of germs in people’s everyday environments, especially Third-World countries.

In fact, some bowel disorders are linked to a LACK of hookworm infections. Humans have lived with hookworms for so long that a certain percentage of the population actually has better bowel health with a few hookworms in their small intestines.

476

In the length of time it took you to compose your last few [del]whine and sob fests[/del] posts you could have accommodate my rather minimal request for ONE CITE.

So you say. Why should I believe you? I don’t have the foggiest notion of who you actually are. You could be a 20 year old college drop out living in mama’s basement and flipping burgers at minimum wage. Or you could be a Noble Prize winning scientist. We have no way to know based on what you’ve said. Why, if you’re so fucking intelligent as you claim, don’t you understand that? I don’t know who you are. I don’t know what you do (or don’t do) for a living, your education, your credentials, nothing about you, really. I have asked for ONE CITE yet you prefer to bitch and moan rather than put up even ONE CITE - therefore I conclude you are full of shit. If you were legit it would be a simple matter to give that one cite but since you can’t be bothered (though paragraphs of texts are no effort for you) I can only conclude you haven’t even one.

We aren’t to ask other posters for personal information, so I am asking you for ONE CITE to demonstrate you at least know how to look up actual research and might be the authority you claim (it does not prove the latter but makes it more likely that your claim is true.)

No. I want ONE CITE. Just ONE CITE. I have stated that request multiple times and so far all you’ve provided is a lot of complaints.

Again, I can only conclude you haven’t even the one and therefore more likely a pimply drop-out posting from your parents’ house than some sort of actual researcher. Until I see evidence to the contrary that’s where you’re staying in my mind. Given the minimal level of contrary evidence I’ve asked for it shouldn’t be hard for you to prove my conclusion wrong if you are actually legit. Every post where you whine rather than provide that cite just makes me doubt you more.

I’m not asking you to convince anyone. I’m asking you to prove you aren’t just blowing smoke out of your ass. ONE CITE. ONE. For ONE DISEASE/CONDITION. But apparently that is too much to ask.

So you’re still in the woo-woo camp as far as I’m concerned. Thanks for playing.

477

Well, I suppose I could start with the many problems that grain consumption, especially gluten-containing grain consumption, causes.

www.gluten-free.org/hoggan/

That link contains quite a few pages that cite peer-reviewed studies. Click on each link to see.

The problem isn’t the science. It’s solid. The problem is getting people to change their habits, and stay changed. They won’t do it.

478

Here’s another link, to a page summarizing a study on the link between dairy consumption and dementia.

As a side note, I do eat dairy, but generally only the cream/butter. I try and avoid the calcium in the dairy. Most people get enough calcium in their diets. If anything, they are actually deficient in magnesium. And yes, I can provide cites for that, believe you me.

479

Here’s another one, on bone fracture rate and calcium consumption.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15949902&query_hl=1Lifetime

480

And speaking of bacteria and bowel problems, here’s a study showing a link between bowel disease and living in a low-bacteria environment.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/08/02/us-bowel-disease-idUSCOL15665020080802