Sigh I’ll try again. I’m sorry that my words are coming across in an offensive manner, that was never my intention. Let me see if I can clarify my position any better.
First, thank you, ultress, for your support.
monster: of course not! going to church, in and of itself, changes NOTHING, unless we also put into practice whatever we may learn there.
Thank you, MVH, I have, the teacher and students were both reprimanded. How sad is that? As for prayer, what and who would it hurt to take 30seconds at the start of the day for silence<be that prayer or whatever time>?
Eve, it is BOTH. I’m not talking about MY truth, I’m talking about a universal truth, such as the sun is very hot. Or, that there is no oxygen to breathe in outer space. Those things are true, whether or not anyone wants to believe them. That is the kind of truth I’m referring to. And my opinion is my opinion. I do not insist or expect anyone else to agree with me. I only offer it here as one choice among many, and I am constantly re-evaluating my opinion, based on new information I come across.
Delta-9, I’m sorry that you feel I was insisting on that. That is not what I was saying at all. My belief is certainly not the only truth in this world, but I do believe, on a day sometime in the future, that we will all stand before God and learn which of us was right. I believe that my belief on this matter is a universal truth, like the sun and the moon, and the air we breathe. I also firmly believe that we all have the right to choose our own path. Do not condemn me for my choice, as I am certainly not condemning anyone else for theirs.
I never intended to cause so much anger and outrage by my statements. I respect all of you for who and what you are. I most FIRMLY believe that the single greatest gift that God has given mankind is the power to choose.
You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.
Scientists are finding more and more proof that they were wrong about the dinosaurs, especially in regards to how old the fossils may actually be. I feel very confident that the proof of our joint ancestry will be found some day. Not having the evidence does not nullify the truth of something. Are you saying that because man could not PROVE the world was round at one time, that the world was flat after all? And now it’s round, only because we can PROVE it to be?
You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.
“I’m talking about a universal truth, such as the sun is very hot. Or, that there is no
oxygen to breathe in outer space. Those things are true, whether or not anyone wants to believe them. That is the kind of truth I’m referring to.”
But, Purple, these are proveable scientific facts. Religious beliefs are not-they are, simply, beliefs. You’re very reasonable in saying that “it’s my opinion.” I agree—and if believing in religion makes you happy, then I say, ‘yay for you’, and wouldn’t dream of trying to change your mind.
But you can’t go around calling your religious beliefs Absolute Truth, or you’re going to find an awful lot of people who will take issue with that.
Here’s the sticky part for me. Yeah, the sun is hot and space has no oxygen, but when we start talking about spiritual things, I don’t think the term “universal truth” can apply.
Let’s just agree to disagree, 'kay?
Eagles may soar, but weasels don’t get sucked into jet engines. Delta-9 Home Page
Okay, purplebear, show me the thermometer that has measured the temperature of God. Or the spectral analyzer that has determined the oxygen content of God. Or the shadow of a planet that, when falling over its moon during an eclipse, proves that God exists and is spherical in nature.
You can’t. Because Faith of one type or another cannot be proven. That is its nature.
For a moment, please set aside the idea of Truth and concentrate on fact. The fact that your faith exists is not open to debate. I accept your statement as valid proof. But to leap from there to saying that the details of your faith are fact - verifiable and undebatable - implies that all other faiths are incorrect and invalid. I do not accept that.
The world was a little less complicated for some people back in the fifties. The fact that it’s become more complicated for those people doesn’t mean that it’s better or worse or more immoral or more moral, only that it’s different, and the most certain faith can be tested in the face of constant change.
SwimmingRiddles, I believe that it was once discussed here how ‘Galileo was killed/imprisioned for claiming the Earth circled the Sun’ is an incorrect statement. I will attempt to look it up…
Delta-9, I agree to disagree. I value your opinions, I don’t necessarily agree with them.
Eve, again, I said that some day, the proof will be found. I believe that Judgment Day will come, and we will all know for sure on that day. I can’t prove it at this time, but again, neither could mankind prove the world was round for centuries. That lack of proof didn’t make the world any less round, did it?
Esprix, I would love to offer proof. However, all I can remember is it was on a show on the Discovery Channel several months ago(since early Dec.'99) I am too new at this computer and 'net to do a search properly. If you would be so kind as to tell me how to do a search, I’ll be happy to.
The last part of your sentence almost sounded like a threat. I hope, based on your other posts I have read, you did not mean it that way.
phouka, I refer to an earlier statement I made. Just because there is not CURRENTLY any verifiable proof does not in any way nullify said truth. So, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that. Also, again, just because a truth is unpleasant or uncomfortable for someone doesn’t mean it isn’t still the truth. All I’m saying is that, for me, I accept the existence of God as fact. You, and everyone else is quite free to disagree, that is what this country is founded on, and I will defend that right for everyone.
I have attacked no one on this board. Ever. And yet, for daring to offer my opinion on this matter, I have been attacked numerous times today. It makes me very sad that this is so. I thought we could discuss our different views without personal attacks here. Fine. So be it. I guess I do need to keep my opinions to myself.
You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.
Purplbear you know I respect you, but i have said this before, and no doubt I will say it again,
“We should have as high a regard for Religion so as to keep it out of as many things as possible”
If a family wants to pray, let them pray. If school children want to pray, let them pray themselves.
If they want to learn about how good having Religion can be, let them sign up for RE classes. if they want an objective view, let them do history.
I have faith, but I cannot trust organized religion.
as for the original post, Kids did go missing, people were alcoholics, did drugs and had affairs in the 50’s. Things werent any better then then they are now. Its just we know more about it in this Decade.
I respect your beliefs, but if I ever had kids, I would want them to discover faith for themselves, not to have anyone elses faith imposed upon them.
And now a statement that will put anyone who knows me into shock.
I agree with the article.
We need religion folks. Religion is all that keeps the teeming millions in check in times of hardship. Without the fear of god in the simple minded, where would we be? Without fear of a higher power, what stops a man from violence or depravity? Morality? Morality is not human nature, and while I know that all of us here are moral, I also know that the ones out there are not. With no god, how do you get the masses to accept death? With no god, how do you get them to accept a life of squallor? How do you shame them from behavior that is detrimental to society?
There are poor people out there. There are stupid people out there. There are people that will never rise to the top. All men are not created equal. Life is fair only in that it is unfair to everyone. So if it takes a god to give some people a reason, let them have their reason.
I suppose I have it easy… I’m an agnostic. I just sit on the fence and let the two sides duke it out. But from my viewpoint, I see the merit in both sides. We need religion to keep atheism from turning to nihilism. But we also need clearer minds to keep religion from becoming fanaticism. Life’s about balance, and I think we could use some in all branches of society.
Random quotes I couldn’t work in (partly because I can’t spell necessary without finding a dictionary):
If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him.
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
http://www.madpoet.com
“I never meant to hurt you,” you said,
And buried yourself in lies instead.
Next time I would rather be slain,
Than forced to bear your mercy again.
I kinda agree with MadPoet—some people really DO need gods in their lives, otherwise they’d run amock.
Purple—I don’t think anyone’s attacking or threatening you; don’t take it to heart! For a religious thread, this has been a veritable tea party, and I’m sure no one here bears you any ill will.
That having been said; you keep contradicting yourself. " . . . some day, the proof will be found. I believe that Judgment Day will come, and we will all know for sure on that day. I can’t prove it at this time, but again, neither could mankind prove the world was round for centuries. That lack of proof didn’t make the world any less round, did it?"
You always start out very reasonably saying that your religious beliefs are just that—your beliefs, your opinions. But then you turn around and say, “but of course, they’re TRUE, no matter what you think!” You just can’t have it both ways.
You can start with a simple search engine like Askjeeves.com - type in a question, such as, “What is the theory of evolution?” and it will give you a list of web sites with connections to that question. You can even try, “Where can I get a transcript of the Discovery Channel program on Creationism?” and it might even give you something (or, better yet, go to the Discovery Channel web site and get some information there, if that’s where you remember it from).
Not a threat, but an observation. Posting opinions or non-verifiable information as FACT is opening yourself up to close, laborious, tedious and demanding public scrutiny on this board. Remember, Cecil has been fighting ignorance since 1973, and posting heresay or rumor as fact is, in a nutshell, ignorant. If you post it, you better be able to back it up, or the skeptics and rationalists on this board (me included) will, in e-rip you to shreds.
So far no one has attacked you, purp, but people have attacked the things you’ve said and your unfounded “facts” (i.e., “there is only one Truth”). I think we all can agree that we like you, but, to quote some other not-as-nice Christians, we love the sinner but hate the sin, if you will.
Don’t be sad - get even, and give us some facts to chew on!
Actually, I agree with it, too - I’ve often remarked that the world could use a little more religion in its life. However, I don’t think that we need to have more Christianity per se - being UU, I’m for the religion that suits you, and more of it. The OP is decidedly Christian-specific, and that’s what gives me the willies.
John, thank you for your words. I, too, do not believe in ‘organized’ religion. That is why I call myself a Christian, rather than a Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, or some such. I dislike the so-called ‘establishment’ religions for a great many reasons, none of which I’ll go into here.Just say that I believe in one true God, His only son, Jesus, and the Holy spirit, and God’s word, the Bible.
As for my kids, rest assured, they can, and have, attended many other services, my husband and I have never said no. They are free to check out, and to choose any religion that touches their hearts, and if they decide on no religion, that too is their right as individuals. It will make me sad, but I respect their right to choose.
MadPoet, I thank you for your words also. Yes, I agree with you about needing religion, and even about needing agnostics to keep religion from becoming fanaticism.
Eve, that was kind of you to say, I was beginning to feel under attack on a personal level by some of the posters, not all. Let me say one more time though that I believe that what I believe is a fact, that will someday be proven. I have said over and over, that this is MY OPINION. You cannot offer me any proof that there is no God, and I cannot offer you any proof that there is at this time. So, we’ll agree to disagree. Believing that something will be proven a fact in the future is not the same thing as insisting that it is a fact and that everyone must accept it as such. I’m sorry if that is how I came across yesterday.
Esprix, dear. Thank you for your kind words, I know that you were not attacking me personally. I will try to find the evidence to back up what I said, I’ve been very busy this morning and will just get my first chance in a little bit. I’ll let you all know what I find out. I like the questions and the rebuttals from everyone, it’s the personal attacks that have me upset, and, yes, at least one person did make it personal. Hopefully, that person didn’t mean it to come out quite that way.
I’ll be back as soon as I have anything to report to you all.
You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.
I am very sorry that it has taken me so long to reply back to those of you who are interested in my reply. Yesterday afternoon, well, let’s just say that the defecation hit the rotating oscillator at my house. I am still attempting to clean up the mess.
I have spent several hours attempting to find the information on the scientists’ report about the real age of dinosaurs, to no avail. It is no doubt due to my inability to formulate the proper question, or to use the search engine most effectively. In the absense of any verifiable proof, I must in all good conscience retract my statement. I thank all of you for your comments and opinions about my comments.
You sing in my consciousness like a counterpoint to my life.
L.L.
