So it is ludicrous to expect people to control themselves? :rolleyes:
You’ve apparently bought into the trendy belief that “humans are animals with uncontrollable sexual urges.” Sorry, I don’t buy it. Why is it I’m able to control myself, but the “poor” are not?
People are no more entitled to have children than they are to automatically own sportcars or private helicoptors. (no sacrasm) If you can’t feed them, don’t breed them.
Yah,
Have we no prisons? Have we no workhouses?
(bleeding heart liberal) but sir, some people would rather die than go to those places.
Then they should hurry up and do it so as to decrease the surplus population.
I know what Crafter Man and ZPG Zealot are getting for Christmas. It’s a visit from three spirits.
Look. Some people have kids, THEN become poor. Nitro seems to have strong family values. He wants to raise his kid. I’ll bet that when the child is older he or his wife will go back to a higher paying job. They have made sacrifices in their lifestyle.
BUT I would never let the government tell me or anyone else they are not rich enough to have sex. That is just plain wrong.
Let me get this straight: Some of you actually believe that poor people, even those in loving, committed relationships, should never risk pregnancy and thus should not have sex? And if they do commit this awful act, and get pregnant, it should not be their choice to keep the child?
I don’t believe that people have “uncontrollable animal urges” but I do believe that adults should be allowed to lead healthy, normal, adult lives. That includes an intimate relationship with a loving partner.
A person has a right to an intimate relationship with a loving partner or a series of kinky one-night stands if that is their preference, they don’t have the right to have other people pay for their sexual activities and that includes the maintenance of any children conceived as a result of those sexual activities. Birth control used properly astronomically reduces the chances of an unwanted pregnancy. If one occurs, the partners (or DNA donors as it happens sometimes), need to act like adults, access whether or not they can afford to be parents, then make decisions accordingly. It should be painfully obvious that a person that cannot afford food for their children, certainly cannot afford any of the other myriad things a child needs.
So my kids are going to commit crimes and end up in prison because both of their parents work, because they go to daycare?
I pose this question to you, nitroglycerine, am I less of a person because I choose not to take advantage of the system, because I choose to work to show my kids that in life, if you want things you have to work for them?
CrankyAsAnOldMan The poor can do whatever they want; I really don’t care. But it is not my (nor the government’s) responsibility to:
No, you don’t, you really, really don’t. Trust me, it would be buerocracy run amock and standards of care would go into the toilet. I work in Health Insurance, and am lisenced in PA, and I can, using just the information provided by you in this thread, show you how to get Health coverage for your whole family without spending dime one more than you’re spending now. You said your wife and kid were playing $200/month for health care- if you qualify for food stamps you qualify for the PA CHIPS program. Put them on that, use that $200 to pay for H.I. for yourself ( 40 year old smoker, $196/mo, I looked it up, and that’s for good coverage- you may not even need that much which means it would be less ). Hell, since you said the insurance was one of the only reasons that your wife worked anyway, have her quit and become a stay at home mom and you take that better paying job you’ve been talking about.
I’ve got a question. If there were no government programs to help people in need, what do they have to do to help themselves? Do you intend to look after their kids yourself? And don’t forget, in times of recession (like right now), donations to private charities drop, which means that someone has to step in and make up the shortfall. And that someone is the government.
On a cheerier (and more relevant) note, there was a segment on Morning Edition this morning about food stamp programs. Seems recipients average about eighty cents per meal per person per day.
Just something to think about.
Robin
Actually, this isn’t true. You don’t have to be utterly destitute to need (or qualify for) food stamps. The program is designed to be a safety net. It helps a family meet their nutirtional needs. These families are (most likely paying for housing and the like by themelves.
Half of all new food stamp recipients are OFF the program within six months. This hardly supports an idea that the people who get food stamps are so poor they can’t meet any needs.
I can understand that resentment. If it’s any comfort to you, though, I’m happy to report that such programs–medical care excluded–are a miniscule amount of the federal budget. Means-tested entitlements like WIC, Food Stamps, veterans benefits, Supplemental Security income, and the like comprise 6% of the Federal government’s spending. We spend more on interest payments to finance the federal debt.
And for others who feel cranky about this program, especially as it relates to people who have kids when they should “know better”: Many of the households who get this help aren’t on it for long. They need TEMPORARY assistance. They get to the point where they can afford to feed their families without assistance. Some deployed reservists’ families have recenbtly qualified for food stamps, as they underwent a cut in pay when they had to leave their civilian jobs. Let’s not forget that Food stamps also help the elderly and the disabled. Also, there is evidence that the WIC program helps to reduce Medicaid expenses for infants and young children. My particular gripe with WIC is that they spend a shitload of money on formula (28% of their budget, based on the most recent data I have) which could be cut considerably if they could get more low-income mothers to attempt breastfeeding. But that, my dear friends, is another issue.
It sticks in the craw to think our money is going to make up for the poor planning of irresponsible people. But they’re not all irresponsible. I don’t believe these families are living “high off the hog” thanks to our tax dollars. We’re helping them–and more importantly, in half of the Food Stamp-receiving households, their children–meet a basic need.
That is your attitude of entitlement. To be honest, I see you as an ambitious-less lazy man approaching middle age. You don’t want to work hard so you’ve taken an easy way out. So you don’t want to work a stressful job at almost 40? boo hoo…almost every other 40 year old (including me) is doing exactly that. So why are you and your wife, at your age (I’ll admit, I don’t know your wife’s age) working such low-paying jobs? My 22-year-old, non-college graduate nephew works as a cashier at CompUsa making about the same as your wife. Get off your ass, get a decent job, and support yourself and your child. It’s not that you can’t work more hours or at a better job, it’s that you’ve chosen not to. You are exactly the kind of person that hurts those who truly do need temporary assistance. You don’t need assistance, you’ve chosen a lifestyle that will enable you to qualify for it. It’s people like you that make people like me fight against such subsidies.
StG
I see YOU as an asshole to be perfectly honest. How DARE you call me lazy. . I spent my time from graduation to two years ago when I got divorced, busting my ass, working 60-70 hours a week, raising two step kids from the time they were 2 and three without taking a fucking thing from the government. Working those hours are what contributed to my first divorce, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to make that same mistake again. I live in central PA where the cost of living is low, and so are the wages. I started out busting my ass in factories making big money, but, hey, in the last decade, there ARE no factories. No, I really don’t have any other skills that I could make a good living at, because, like I said, I started out doing the factory thing, then, after those jobs weren’t there anymore, I got into cooking and restaurant management, 'cause retaurants and stores are about the only places hiring around here.
As far as the people saying that pregnancies just don’t happen…Did you know that antibiotics can cause birth control pills to fail? Neither did we. Not that it matters though, my son is the best thing that ever happened to me, planned or not. If I have my way, one day he will be the benevolent dictator of North America and one of his first orders of buisiness will be to march sanctimonious asshats like yourself to the wall.
Jon
I am sorry that your first wife left you because you worked. I am also sorry that society has to ensure that it won’t happen again to you, buy providing for you.
I am also sorry that neither you nor your current wife can read the directions that come with the pill. It clearly states that taking antibiotics can make the pill ineffective. One of the first things you should do before popping a pill in your mouth is to read the directions!
And, put me in line for the march of the sanctimonious asshats to the wall.
Well, I know when I’m outnumbered. I’m gonna bow out before this one gets nasty. I’m just surprised at the amount of venom spewing from you people toward something as innocuous as food stamps.
You guys win by default 
Jon
I’ve posted this story before-
93-I graduate high school. I’m accepted into my first choice college and receive a partial scholarship due to merit.
94-I’m in the honors program. I’m on the fast track to the life I’ve always wanted. My first semester GPA is 3.85. Then, things start to get harder. My second semester is a bit tougher. But I do well.
95-I have to struggle to retain anything. It takes longer and longer to get my work done. This semester’s grades are lower. Things get even worse. I can’t think. I can’t remember. My fourth semester GPA was a 2.0.
My psychiatrist and I have been looking for the right mix of pills since then. Sometimes, it seems like things are almost good again and that soon I'll be able to go back to my life. Sometimes there constant and intense panic attacks and being awake is so unpleasant that I sleep 16 hours each day.
I do have a computer. It's a few years old and has no resale value. A friend found it while cleaning out his basement.
I'm using my Dad's MSN. He got sucked into one of those 'buy a new pc, and get a $100 refund. . .if you sign this $200 MSN contract.'
I don't own a car. I do not not smoke. until the Philly Dope Dinners started(and I'm beginning to worry about the cost of those-$5 round trip on public transportation plus $6-10 for food twice a month), I went out to eat four or so times a year (there is a $10 all you can eat Chinese buffet in walking distance from my place. I went there for Thanksgiving last year. I plan on making it my Turkey Day tradition for as long as I live in this apartment.). I rarely go to the movies. I am a cheap man.
Which is good because the government only gives me $550 a month. My rent is $585. The telephone and electric bills are $20 each.
Mountain Dew-
Diet Dew is a staple for me. Buying cans means that I don’t need to wash glasses.
Frozen Food-
Zenster, I try to avoid buying too much prepared food. I know it's expensive. But, I no longer have the will power or energy to wash dishes to the standards my OCD requires. I lost most of my silverware when it sat in the sink so long that it rusted. Cooking food means doing dishes. So I avoid cooking. If I want real food, the best way is to buy a frozen dinner.Again, while these may seem like egregious situations, you don’t know the details of these people’s lives. My father was self-employed, and when he didn’t work, there was no income. He had a heart attack and needed significant open heart surgery after which he suffered major complications — he flatlined and was brought back four times. Eventually, the liquid assets were depleted but my father was still unable to go back to work and still needed my mother’s regular assistance just to manage everyday tasks like bathing, dressing and moving around the house. So my very proud, very hard-working parents sought government help until my father was back on his feet.
My mother still owned and wore her (substantial) diamond wedding and engagement rings. My father still owned his diamond wedding band and gold watch. They still had the new Lincoln that they had bought right before my father’s heart attack. Would you have suggested that should have been required to sell all those things before they accepted assistance? Or just that my mom should’ve left her rings at home when she went grocery shopping with food stamps, just for appearance’s sake? I guess she should’ve taken the bus, too, so that no one saw her in that big, brand new, shiny car?
Once, when my father went along to the store, someone (I don’t know if it was a cashier or another shopper) made some comment about the fact that they used food stamps, and my father turned around and opened his shirt, revealing the scars from collarbone to navel, around horizontally from midline to midline and where ten different drains had been inserted. He really should never have felt that was necessary.
I heartily agree with suggestions that everyone who receives food stamps should receive nutrition counseling. (My mother wouldn’t have needed it, but it wouldn’t have hurt.) I would even go so far as getting behind a system which didn’t allow the purchase of junk food and processed stuff unless a certain percentage of the weekly allotment had been spent on fruit, vegetables and healthy grain products, or did a ratio, for every three veggies you buy, you can get a bag of chips, if you buy two pounds of fruit you can get a bottle of soda or a quart of ice cream, three whole-grain products allows a box of macaroni and cheese or rice-a-roni. (I wouldn’t include meat or dairy since there are people who avoid them.)
But I can’t get behind making judgments about the worthiness of a benefits recepient based upon superficial, appearance-based criteria. You just can’t know what someone’s story is by looking.
As for the “should poor people have children” argument, I’m not going to go as far as ZPG Zealot, but I can’t buy CrankyAsAnOldMan’s argument either. Obviously there are people who have children and then experience hardships. I wish them nothing but the best and begrudge them not one bit of the safety net they may rely upon while trying to get back on their feet.
But speaking specifically of people who know that their budgets simply cannot absorb the additional expenses related to a pregnancy – let alone raising a child – while I don’t think that they ought not have sex at all, I can certainly agree that they should not have sex when the chances of conception are highest, at ovulation. (And yes, there are completely free ways of determining when one ovulates.) When the choice is being inconvenienced with abstinence for a few days or risking a pregnancy when circumstances are not in any way conducive toward supporting same, reasonable people accept that you can’t always get what you want, and that includes nookie. People must occasionally subsume their wants when they run counter to their needs. Take a cold shower and suck it up for a few days for the greater good.
DocCathode, you have an illness. I don’t know that anybody could possibly begrudge you the assistance you receive or questions the choices that you have to in order to manage within the limitations that the OCD places upon you. Focus on your wellbeing, that’s the priority.
I don’t need to know the details of everyone’s life. The point is this: if you truly need assistance with feeding your family, you shouldn’t be wasting almost $100 of the foodstamps the government has given you for the month on sodas. When you pass up several grocery stores to drive to a gas station merely to purchase 20 cases of soda, yes, I have a problem. Sorry if that offends anyone, but it makes me mad. Especially if what everyone is saying is true…that you are only given a few hundred or even less to begin with. Spending over half of it on sodas would surely leave you starving by the end of the month if you really need the help.
As for the car and rings, from what I have heard from others, the value of your cars and such plays a role in whether or not you will receive aid. I know several people who have went out of their way not to have their nice cars in their names so that they could continue to receive benefits. Maybe I am misinformed on this matter. I myself have never filled out any application like this, so I don’t know firsthand, only from what others have told me. So…my assumption when someone has all of these nice things that should disqualify them from receiving aid? They cheated or lied when filing for benefits.
tlw…please do not take this as a slight to your family. I in no way intend that. I’m just trying to let you know why my earlier statement says what it says. Like I said, I may be misinformed about the whole process, so feel free to enlighten me if you have any knowledge on this subject.
Maybe my feelings on this subject are totally different than a lot of you who have replied here. My parents raised my brother and I to be proud and work hard in life. My dad never made huge amounts of money, but we did okay. My parents probably have more to show for their years of working than others who made 3 times what they did. They know how to manage their money and are extremely good savers. I know not everyone comes from this type of background and that I had an extremely wonderful childhood. But…
Currently, my mom is unable to work, yet receiving nothing to compensate for the income she lost by getting hurt at work. My dad got laid off from his job after 18 years. What did he do? He found a new way to make money. Sure it isn’t easy for him (he does lawncare all summer) because he is getting older and hard labor is rough on him, but he does it. And never complains. He’s a hard worker who does a wonderful job and actually has to turn down work because he has enough jobs already. He has tried getting some people to work for him, but they never last very long.
So in my experience, which may be somewhat limited, there are ways around obstacles life throws you. If that means working 2 or 3 jobs, I’d work 2 or 3 jobs. I honestly can say that if the day came that I could no longer afford to feed myself, I would probably starve. There is no way I could walk in to a store and pay with foodstamps or an EBT card. The shame I would feel would be too much. Not being able to provide for myself would make me feel like a total failure in my eyes and in the eyes of my family. I’m sorry my parents made me feel like this, but it’s true.
I really hope everyone doesn’t get the idea that I’m a heartless bitch or anything. I’m really a sweet loving person. I have just had experiences in life that have given me a negative attitude towards this type of thing. I don’t think you can work as a cashier in a grocery store and not get somewhat jaded on the foodstamp issue. It really is amazing how people can waste those things on junk or not pay attention to what they are spending.
I guess another thing I should say is that I am from a very poor area in Appalachia which might make a big difference in how I view things. There is extreme abuse of every government program in that area, not just foodstamps.
We were discussing it at work yesterday, and I did learn some things. If it is true that the majority of people accepting this type of aid are single moms who only use it for several months until they can get on their feet, I’m all for it. I know older people in this country have a tough time paying for medicine and probably need all the help they can get, whether it be with food or whatever. I don’t have a problem with that. It’s just those certain people…
Note to self: never again open thread with “food stamp” in title. Bad idea.
I’m sorry that you’re bowing out of the debate, Nitro because you’ve convinced me to reevaluate my concept of food stamps in situations similar to yours.
I realized that I want the poor to be humble- damn it.
How dare you not grovel and pull your forelock when your betters walk by.
I also bought into a value system that thinks it perfectly acceptable for some one to work 18 hours a day just to survive.
Not your fault that most of the decent manufacturing jobs have moved overseas in order to guarantee Americans the right to purchase more crapola more cheaply.
Not your fault that the only jobs available in your area are service jobs that don’t pay much at all.
(Now, you could’ve read the label a little more closely on the birth control pills but heh-like I haven’t made mistakes in my lifetime?)
I’m having a moment of “there but for the grace of God…” right now.
Good luck to you and your family.
Some of you seem to think that pregnancy and its occurrence and prevention are perfect sciences. I don’t understand where you got that information. I wish it were true. My doctor wishes it were true. Planned Parenthood wishes it were true. You ever had your due date changed because the day your doctor and you were sure you got pregnant (according to modern information, temperatures, and so on) turned out to be dead wrong? That’s not a one-in-a-million event.
I have never in this thread advocated that poor people have a cavalier attitude about birth control. I’m just asking some of you to be less sanctimonious about any poor person’s pregnancy, because you don’t know the steps that the family may have taken to prevent that pregnancy, and you’re under the mistaken impression that conception from intercourse is 100% preventable.
I don’t even want to think about the suggestion that any poor pregnant person must terminate or adopt out their children.
And I apologize for beating this dead horse right into the terra firma, but I fret that I have not made myself very well understood.