My post made me think about something I hadn’t in a while, and I didn’t want to hijack the other thread to ask others about it. Do you have trouble hearing music on CD having grown up in the vinyl era?
I’ll clarify: let’s say your first exposure to Abbey Road was on vinyl album, like mine was. Does it sound peculiar to you to have “Here Comes The Sun” come immediately after “I Want You (She’s So Heavy)” because of its original status as a hard-rock side closer? Do you feel it stunts the effect originally intended by the Beatles in its original placement, or does it still work for you?
To some extent, Elvis Costello’s CD reissues on Rykodisc in the 1990s honored that Side One/Side Two logic, by adding about ten seconds of silence between the last song of the original first side and the first song of the second. The silence was added as a zero index on the CD, so if you were skipping around listening to different songs, you wouldn’t hear a pregnant pause, but if you listened to an disc in its entirety, the blank space would give a breather.
I’d like to hear your thoughts, and also examples of CDs that you have trouble with because you originally consumed them on vinyl, or the reverse as well…if you think, for example, that a recording of Beethoven’s 9th works better because it’s a now-continuous work on CD, I’d like to hear about that as well.
As the Nutri-Matic Drinks Synthesizer says in The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe, “share and enjoy!”
Funny you should ask – I was thinking about this just the other day, but I hadn’t yet put together my thoughts for an OP that would have been nearly as good as yours.
I’ve been listening to the first Pretenders album recently, and I definitely think “okay stop – get up – walk across the room – flip it over…” as the “second side” begins.
And I’m never going to be able to get “Who’s Next” on CD, because I always thought they did the sides backward on that, and always listened to the second side first.
You’d think musicians would put together an album differently, now that it’s a single flow of music (and they don’t have to build in a pause around 22.5 minutes), but that’s not always the case. I don’t have a CD player in my car, so I made a tape of “In This House, On This Morning” (Wynton Marsalis) – a two-disk album – but amazingly, each of the disks had a song break right around 40 minutes so I could get the whole album on two tapes without effing up any of the songs.
It’s interesting you mention that…I’ve thought it about a lot of albums. After I found out that the Beatles originally intended Abbey Road’s sides to be reversed, I tried listening to it that way, and to me it’s a much more dynamic ending to the album and their career to have the music just suddenly STOP. Likewise, “The Song Is Over” is a nice way to put *Who’s Next * to bed.
On a related note, the rock critic Dave Marsh mentions that Bruce Springsteen’s Tunnel Of Love album makes more sense if you reverse the running order of Side Two, as it then becomes a concept album about romantic disillusionment (on the CD, you’d reverse the order of tracks 7 through 12, that is, everything from the title track to “Valentine’s Day”).
I hadn’t really noticed it that much, but you do have a point. Vinyl albums often were designed with the idea that there would be a pause between side one and side two.
I disagree that Abbey Road sides should have been reversed, though. Remember, in the original album, “Her Majesty” was not listed on the album cover or label – an early “bonus track,” if you like. The album was designed to end with “The End,” which logically should be the final track. (I remember someone trying to remove the record from the turntable after “The End,” and having to tell her to wait a minute for the surprise.) “Her Majesty” was something of a coda to the ending, and the Beatles had done something similar on “Sgt. Pepper” (though not an actual song).
But there really needs to be a pause after certain songs. “I Want You (She’s So Heavy)” benefits from a few seconds of silence once it’s done, as does Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven.”
There are some things that are better – for instance, the Allman Brother’s “Mountain Jam” from Eat a Peach was originally broken into two parts due to constraints and is better combined. (OTOH, originally the jam was on sides 2 and 4 of the album, so combining them changes the order of songs.)
I ripped the songs from Meatloaf’s “Bat Out Of Hell” and reburned a CD in the order the songs are on my old cassette. I’ll probably do that with other CDs because the orders are just plain WRONG on the CDs.
Exactly. It’s very much a different aesthetic. And of course, record labels are hesitant to allow changes to a running order when an album is reissued on CD because a longtime listener’s whole bedrock of understanding an album changes. I seem to recall Jimmy Page saying he enjoyed putting together the first Led Zeppelin CD box set because it allowed him to reconceptualize how the songs would sit together, and which ones would flow together best in four different experiences.
Oh, don’t get me wrong…I don’t think they should’ve been reversed, but when Mark Lewisohn reported in one of the Beatles sessions’ books that they were considering releasing it in the other order, I thought, well, I should try spinning it that way. I agree lyrically and conceptually that they got it right as released, but it is interesting to hear it rendered in reverse, with that muted explosion as the fair-thee-well to the whole story. (Side note: in the earlier layout, the band and George Martin had “Her Majesty” slotted after “Mean Mr. Mustard,” if I remember the book correctly…which is why the beginning and end of “Her Majesty” sound odd on the album; it was cut out of the original rough mix of the big medley.)
It could be that as time has gone on, I hear “The End” as too perfect, too cute, too pat a gesture versus the blaze-of-glory finale of “I Want You.” Likewise with “Good Night” on The Beatles…sorta like how Dickens has all those damned coincidences in his novels, you know?
Ultimately I agree that they got it right as issued, though…the big medley makes more sense as a launch pad for McCartney’s solo work, among other things. I probably should have phrased that as “much more dynamic ending to the album and their career to have the music just suddenly STOP, but not necessarily the most appropriate overall.”
To your ear, would “Mountain Jam” sound better closing the entire CD, giving it a more “epic” ending, or is the issued CD with “Little Martha” as-grace-note more effective? I’m kinda torn on that one.
I have the same problem with the first Dire Straits album, oddly enough, because my first exposure was the 8-track. To me, the album works better with the sequence of “Down To The Waterline”/“Setting Me Up”/“Southbound Again” (break) “Six Blade Knife”/“In The Gallery” (break) “Sultans Of Swing”/“Wild West End” (break) “Water Of Love”/“Lions” as the running order. Of course, the CD follows the vinyl, but I still can’t get my head to enjoy that order. Could be that I’ve tricked myself into hearing that sequence as a two-record set or something, because the songs seem more…balanced, somehow.
Does the cassette match the vinyl running order of Bat Out Of Hell, or was it juggled to fit?
Another side note: thinking of cassettes with different running orders, I remember my aunt being VERY agitated that “Free Bird” was split in half on the cassette version of the first Lynyrd Skynyrd album. Anyone else have that reaction?
I’m doing such a wonderful job of hijacking myself all over the place here…I apologize!
Ah, Bat Out Of Hell. To this very day, whenever I hear “You Took The Words Right OUt Of My Mouth”, in my head I hear the fade out and fade in when the song switched tracks on the 8-track copy I had of it. It happened again yesterday, on a VH-1 video channel, when they had a live Meat Loaf performing that one.
Although interestingly enough, the running orders on the cassette and vinyl versions of Fleetwood Mac’s “Rumors” is completely different, although I like both versions!
This must be some low-rent version of Karlheinz Stockhausen’s opinion that music should be tailored to its delivery medium. I’ve often thought about starting a band that had a completely different repertoire for live performances than what appeared on their records.
I dunno. It never seemed like a vinyl sorta album so I never owned the LP. It’s not really a CD album (more of a seedy album), either, though. Cassette was a compromise because I didn’t have the correct medium, an 8-track.
scotandrsn, if you get the chance, check out the updated running order on the reissued DVD-A version of Rumours - the b-side “Silver Springs” has been added as the sixth track(!), with “Songbird” moving to the end of the album. To me, the net effect is that Stevie Nicks’ composition acts as a rebuttal to “Go Your Own Way” (by then-recent ex Lindsey Buckingham) and Christine McVie’s song acts as a benediction to close the entire project. Oddly, I think the album feels more balanced this way, and I could see a vinyl sequence in that order making a LOT of sense.
It’s interesting that the addition not only doesn’t fall at the end (which would be the normal place to add a “bonus track”), but in fact breaks up the vinyl’s running order before the true center of the album (i.e., it actually interrupts Side One in the process, which would usually be a no-no, in this case twice over).
snort Amen, brother, and thank you for the pun!
True enough. “Paradise By The Dashboard Light” really doesn’t translate on vinyl, come to think of it. I’m belatedly grasping that 8-track and/or cassette really are the ideal formats for Bat Out Of Hell, and that whole “the medium is the message” thing that scotandrsn mentioned makes even more sense.
That’s a really interesting idea. On the one hand, I can hardly imagine the album not beginning with “Baba O’Riley,” while I had to rack my brains to remember what the first song on side two even was. On the other hand, I like the concept of starting by “getting in tune” and ending by acknowledging that “the song is over.”
I’m 45, and I was so happy to be able to listen to Emerson, Lake & Palmer’s
Karneval 9 (1st impression) as one continuous 13 minute song, as opposed to an
8:00 tune that fades out and a 5:00 continuation (on side 2).
I don’t miss the “flip” at all.
But something funny did happen with another album I owned.
I had Jethro Tull’s"Minstrel in the Gallery" on vinyl. I loaned it to a friend of mine and he put a scratch on the second side. By coincidence, the scratch created a perfectly timed beat in the first song. When I replaced the vinyl with the CD I find I’m always anticipating the “scratch” and the song sounds funny without it.
Sorry, I must have hit “enter” by accident. What I meant to say was:
That’s a really interesting idea. On the one hand, I can hardly imagine the album not beginning with “Baba O’Riley,” while I had to rack my brains to remember what the first song on side two was. On the other hand, I like the concept of starting by “getting in tune” and ending by acknowledging that “the song is over.” Musically, it’s a bit odd: “The Song Is Over” would be a great closer, but I don’t think “Getting In Tune” is such a convincing curtain raiser, and it would mean that the album would both begin and end with ballads while sticking the really Who-like hard rock epics right in the middle. (I do like the idea of “Baba” following hot on the heels of “Won’t Get Fooled Again.”)
So as long as we’re restructuring the album, how about beginning with “Pure and Easy” (which of course was left out of the original running order entirely), and ending with “The Song Is Over”? The quote of the former at the end of the latter would bring the album full circle.
Would you still leave “Getting In Tune” in the sequence, right after “Pure And Easy,” or go right into “Goin’ Mobile?” In my mind’s ear, I could hear either option working very well, frankly…
Interesting question. I’ll sidestep it and go with the version on “Live at Ludow Garage,” which I used to listen to long before “Eat a Peach” came out.*
But I think overall, I’d put “Mountain Jam” as one piece to finish the album.
Sure. I think that was on contributing factor in the death of 8-Tracks – they often had to move songs around to fit them on (as well as break songs in the middle). It wasn’t easy putting out an album that broke down into four equal sections. It was easier to handle on cassettes – one side would be longer than the other, so you’d have to fast forward. If a track ran short on an 8-track (which had no fast forward or rewind), you’d have to wait until it was done.
*No, I don’t have my chronology wrong. My college roommate worked at Ludlow Garage and had the tape of the concert. It was about 20 years later that the CD came out.
I think that the main thing I notice is that with CD’s today, they just go ahead and leave all the crappy songs on them.
I seem to have a lot of vinyl that is STRONG for the whole 32 minutes.
I have CDs that might have 32 good minutes on them. . .too bad the whole thing 50 minutes long.
Not just that. With your vinyl, you might listen to side A, then put on a different record. Next time you come back to the first one, you go, “I haven’t listened to side B in a while” and you end up hearing the whole thing (over time).
I have CDs that I like but just can’t listen to for 45 minutes straight, and I rarely put on in and start it in the middle. Invariably, I listen to something 3 months after buying it and go, “I don’t remember that song being on there.”
Actually what I miss about vinyl are the “ghosts” that showed up before the first cut on each side and occiassionally between tracks. I know full well they’re actually a production flaw (the master tape “bleeding” the magnetic pattern onto the layer of tape underneath it) but I always felt like the band was briefly warming up before cranking into the full-volume track.
I think it would call for a total reshuffle. You’d certainly want a major rave-up like “Won’t Get Fooled Again” as a climax before the quiet ending. This is kind of off the top of my head, but how about:
Pure and Easy
Baba O’Riley
Getting In Tune
My Wife
Going Mobile
Behind Blue Eyes
Bargain
Love Ain’t for Keeping
Won’t Get Fooled Again
The Song Is Over
If I had to sacrifice another song to make up for adding “Pure and Easy,” it would have to be “Going Mobile.”