Sorry I’ll bow out, that church and others like them are about all I have to go on. Keep in mind, these are people that think Billy Graham is too liberal.
I think you’ve asked a question that can’t be answered only in the narrow sense you keep trying to direct, so I’ll go find another thread to annoy.
I am a Christian, but a lot of my beliefs are outside the mainstream, so I can’t say that I speak for others, but essentially my response is… it depends. Obviously, I believe what I believe because I think I’m right, but I also believe that I’m probably wrong about some of the things I think I’m right about. Recognizing that the nature of God is inherently beyond human understanding and what we see of his nature is equivalent to both a higher-dimensional projection onto a lower one and a lower resolution of that nature, then I think that’s it’s logical to conclude that different perspectives, different cultures, different eras, will all have different perspectives.
The questions I ask are how do the teachings of the different deities align with the teachings that I follow. Yes, the rites and mythologies will likely vary significantly from culture to culture, but if the basics of how we should behave and act toward eachother are the same or very similar, then I think it becomes increasingly difficult to make a meaningful distinction.
Further I would tend to agree with Marcus Aurelius in the nature of a just God. And so, frankly, I don’t really care what other people believe, I care much more about them being moral upstanding people. Maybe they’re just have a different perspective on the nature of God, maybe they believe in a god that doesn’t exist, or maybe they even don’t believe in God. In my beliefs, the God I believe in puts much more stock in the way people live than in whatever gods they may believe in or rituals they do or do not fufill.
Czarcasm, any religious person who’s been on the Dope a while will know that all you’re just waiting for them to say “They aren’t real” or “Distortion of the real God” and you will go on to argue “But there’s no proof that your god is the right one!” When is enough going to be enough? How many threads are you going to start asking religious people to logically defend their irrational beliefs?
It isn’t that narrow. It’s just that I don’t want a thread directed towards the religious(see title) about what THEY believe(see title) about deities other than their own(see title) be immediately taken over by the non-religious(see thread) talk about what they think(see thread) about the beliefs of Christians(see thread).
Your insecurities are not my problem. Personally, I think preemptive strikes like this do more to harm conversation than anything you imagine I might say.
So, among the choices I listed in the OP, which would you choose?
If I understand your reasoning, yes, the reasoning is valid no matter what the foot. If by “religion” you mean systems of thought about God that are faith-based, then Christianity/Judaism/atheism/Islam/etc. are religions. But I don’t see the objection - most people, I expect, would agree that Islam is a religion in that sense.
So yes, it’s valid. If you define “religion” as “systems of thought that assert things that cannot be absolutely proven”, then both the Abrahamic faiths as well as atheism are “religions”. It’s rather a loose definition, but the syllogism holds.
[ul][li]A religion is a system of thought that makes statements it cannot prove.[/li][li]Atheism states, but cannot prove, that God does not exist.[*]Ergo, atheism is a religion.[/ul][/li]Regards,
Shodan
If you don’t mind me asking, what religion do you belong to, and what do you believe about the existence of deities other than the one you follow?
edited to add: Nice attempt to change the subject, by the way.
There are too many possible deities, that have been posited over the course of history, for me to have a single answer that covers all of them.
I’d say that some of them are distorted reflections of the true, Christian God. Some of them might be lesser beings subordinate to God (something that we might recognize as angels, or some similar category). Some of them might be demons. Some of them might be spirits that were neither clearly good nor evil (C. S. Lewis had some speculation along those lines in his Perelandra trilogy). And I’m sure some of them don’t exist and never did.
Nonexistent, demonistic, or subservient, depending on the religion. Thank you.
How are you sure?
Not religious in nature, I believe that all gods are one god. I’m a polytheist. They are all valid and whatever gets you through the night is good enough for me…
There’s a theory that Jesus of Nazareth studied with the Egyptians. And yet another that says he was using parlor tricks as traveling messiahs abounded in those days. /Hijack over/
OK, here’s as straightforward an answer as I can manage. As a reference point, I’m Christian (Catholic).
I believe there is only one God (this isn’t the place for a trinitarian debate). I believe that there are no other gods.
I also believe that this God is the same God in which Jews believe, and in which Muslims belief.
I do not believe that the gods that followers of, for example, Norse religion(s) worship exist. Or that they ever existed.
Given the choices, I’d have to say “other”. For me, there isn’t a single box to fit them all in and, frankly, I don’t think it provides much utility to do so. The point is that, in the end, there is only one truth, either God(s) exists and he has a specific nature or he doesn’t exist. If it’s the former, then it’s a matter of a distance between one believe and the truth, and if it’s the latter.
And as for atheism being a religion, I think it depends on how religion is defined, but I also think it’s just an exercise it futility. Personally, I don’t like the idea of saying religion is making assertions that can’t be definitively proven, because that covers a whole plethora of concepts that we don’t generally associate with religion. Personally, when I use the term religion, I think it involves more than a belief system, but also includes at least some sort of ritual, mythology, and/or proselytization. In that sense, I think it’s possible to be be a theist or atheist and also be either religious or not religious (or zealous or devout or whatever term you want). I don’t think it’s fair to call atheism a religion, but by that same token I would also argue that a militant atheist probably has a lot more in common with a strongly religious person than a he does with an athiest who just doesn’t believe in God, but otherwise doesn’t do anything else about it.
It’s that absolute certainty that differentiates atheists from agnostics…and also, IMHO, what catapults them into similar realms as religious people, at least from the perspective of being absolutely certain without proof.
Is the reasoning valid when it’s on the other foot? I think so, yes.
Yes, for the most part I am atheistic about other gods. I believe that some religions may have been started/influenced by actual revelations of the real God. I will even acknowledge that Christianity (my religion) is far from perfect, and is also one of those religions that is a combination of history, culture, divine revelation, and man’s influence.
I think belief in some other gods may have been based on truly supernatural origins. But those origins could be a result of demons, or angels, or even God himself, but perhaps the revelation was screwed up by man over time.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here by “putting the shoe on the other foot”? Telling religious people their beliefs are religious is not going to bother us one bit.
I have often heard the saying, “I submit we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do.” I have no problem with the idea that I reject many other religion’s ideas of God, just as you reject mine. But I think the assertion that “there is NO god” is indeed religious in nature since we have no proof either way. If you were to say, “There may be a god, but I have not seen evidence to support that belief, so I choose not to believe in any of the specific gods described by the world’s religions” – now there is a non-religious but yet still atheistic statement. Once you make the declaration that there IS NO GOD you have strayed into religious territory.
I’m not trying to prove anything, and there are no “gotchas” up my sleeve. It’s just we atheists talk about their beliefs in the existence of deities, so I thought I would be interesting to have those believe in any particular deity or set of deities talk about their beliefs concerning deities other than their own. I have no plans to jump on anyone’s beliefs, and I think I’ve shown that I will actively discourage others from doing the same.
Thank you.
I think that should be discussed in another thread, because it would quickly overwhelm this one.
OK, cool. I wasn’t trying to say I was expecting a “gotcha” but perhaps you could explain a bit more about what you are trying to accomplish or learn from these questions. My answers seem kinda obvious to me, but I guess if you didn’t grow up with religion it could seem a bit odd. Religious people, in general, are quite open to the idea that they choose to believe in things without proof. We believe those things about our own faith, so we can certainly choose what to believe about others’ beliefs. Does that help explain where we are coming from?