Hmmm…
So was it his confession that clinched it?
Turing was convicted of performing “unnatuaral” (homosexual) acts, and NOT of being a homosexual.…and this makes enough of a difference to warrant mentioning it.
As I said, I offered a small correction, maybe it wasn’t worth mentioning, I’m not the arbiter of worthiness, I just did. Banging on about it endlessly now might be equally worthless, or even worth less.
Turing “elected” to have the “treatment” as part of his sentence.…and this somehow makes it more justifiable.
Absolutely. Enforced administration of personality altering substances is to my mind an outrageous, heinous obscenity, banging some one up for a couple of years is just mundanely obscene.
Citation please if you want to link this directly with his suicide (I’m sure it added to his general pissed-offness).…A causal link seems tenuous or unlikely.
No, there may well be a causal link, but I’m not aware of one. Particularly my first post questioned the link between the chemical treatment and his suicide:“He was sentenced to hormonal treatment with estrogen for it; he developed breasts, became suicidally depressed, and killed himself in '54” Maybe no causal link is implied, but I read one.
The wider issues (loss of position, respect, liberty) clearly would have had a damaging effect that I am perfectly happy to just accept would have contributed significantly to AT’s suicidal state of mind.
I’m willing to bet that there’s not a single thing that I am trying to say here that you wouldn’t agree with, but let’s not argue anymore (at least not in this thread) it is way off topic.
I can’t get page two to load, so if I am repeating someone, my apologies.
For the record: I am not Christian or gay. Any physical expression of love between consenting adults is just fine with me.
However, I am answering in the spirit of the OP.
I take the question to be, “How should those who have entirely unacceptable sexual longings live their lives?” I would suggest a comparison in unacceptability between gay love (to bible-literalist Christians) and pedophilia (in modern life). What should pedophiles do?
I would say, if asked, that pedophiles may fantasize all they like, but must never, ever, give in and have sex with children. I could understand (if not obey) a similar argument from the bible-literalist Christians: a gay person may fantasize all they wish, but must never, ever, give in and have homosexual sex.
Bear in mind that what we consider pedophilia has not always been unacceptable. I am thinking of the teenage boy-older man pairs in ancient Greece, but there may be other examples. I don’t know how the teenage boys felt about the whole thing, but as it was apparently common and accepted at the time, the shame and self-loathing that such relations would inflict on the teen now would not have been a factor. But now? Whew, just don’t do it! No matter how difficult it may be for you, just don’t do it! Sorry!
Now, doesn’t that sound kind of like H4E’s response?
Makes sense to me.
(in the spirit of the OP)
“It may be lack of exposure, ignorance, or just plain prejudice, but I have a much harder time with changing genders than I do homosexuality. I don’t understand how one can be wrong and the other can be right.”
—Well, I would be glad to clear up any lack of exposure or ignorance, but I’m afraid there’s nothing I can do about the prejuduce.
Okay, sorry. I would consider that as civil a thing to say about fundamentalism as any fundamentalist has ever said about me, but I apologize for crossing a line.
Kirk
Let’s all say it together, folks - gender identity and sexual orientation are two seperate issues.
It took me a while to wrap my mind around that as well, but there it is.
Esprix
Eve, since, in my case, I’ve found prejudice can be cured by education and exposure, you may be able to do more about the former than you think. I am willing to learn.
Kirkland, apology accepted.
CJ
Or, “what you are” and “who you like to sleep with” have nothing to do with each other.
Oh. That, I never had a problem with, which is one reason why I can fathom gender reassignment as a viable solution for someone who is homosexual, but thinks homosexuality’s wrong. Then again, to me, gender identity doesn’t have much to do with a lot of things such as ability with math, logic, or babies.
CJ
" . . . I can fathom gender reassignment as a viable solution for someone who is homosexual . . . "
—Ah, but you see, that’s the crux of the matter. A man who’s attracted to other men is still a man; a lesbian is still a woman. Me, I’m not much attracted to anyone anymore, but I am still mentally and emotionally female and always have been.
{sigh} Eve, you have a mighty task ahead of you. Here, have a cookie to help you along the way… 
Esprix
I looked over the material. I saw statistical indications of people who self-identified as “homosexual” before and “heterosexual” after – but (as the writer himself was quick to indicate) no clear definition of what those terms meant. I saw his raising ethical questions regarding what a psychoanalyst ought to be doing; I saw him raising questions of sexual desire vs. moral precept.
In short, I did not see him dealing directly with what exactly you cited his presentation in support of.
I assumed based on fifty years of reading and observing social attitudes in 20th Century America that the neurosis and self-loathing were present – it is very rare for someone with a good mental self-adjustment to decide that he needs psychotherapy. In one case I recognized a name as being someone I know from past reading to have been running a staunch campaign that any homosexual is ipso facto mentally disordered. I saw a bunch of individual people’s reports, with no indication of how this compares quantitatively to the number of people seeking therapy. I did not see any suggestion of how these particular therapists were selected – were they a random sample, or the ones whose “results” most closely met the writer’s desire for data?
I suspect strongly that a wide variety of people on this board could adduce a quite larger number of anecdotal accounts suggesting just the opposite results.
To you and to anyone else interested, I’d put forth the challenge: are there any unbiased statistical studies supporting or refuting the view, which I infer from his post is puddleglum’s, that exclusively gay people can make a healthy adjustment to heterosexuality?
Would someone please amend my last post to read:
Eve, Esprix, please accept my apologies for any misunderstanding.
CJ
It’s actually a difficult challenge, Polycarp[, because both sides are arguing from a completely different set of precepts. If you take as a given that homosexuality is bad, and should be cured, then any success in converting someone concerned about their same-sex attraction is considered proof that “gays can change”. Or, as the American Psychiatric Association states in their position paper on the subject,
Oh, and from the American Psychological Association,
I’m still looking for statistical analyses, but seeing as the only people conducting reorientation therapy are only releasing the data that makes them look best, I’m not sure I’ll find anything. Suffice it to say that if neither one of the APA’s has found any evidence that reorientation therapy works, I doubt if I’m going to find it either.
Ah! Typo. That explains it, cjhoworth, I couldn’t think what you were talking about!
I don’t want to start a new thread because I’m going out of town on Saturday but I did come accross this article and am curious as to all of your opinions.
It’s incredibly biased and has no citations of any factual information.
Esprix
It looks to me like high school kids were “forced” to watch two films about not being biased against gays—what’s the big deal? You might think they’d had to sit through Forrest Hump or A Queer and Pleasant Stranger.
What Esprix and Eve said. I can’t find any facts. From what (secret?) agentfroot tells me about my old high school and from what I’ve seen, calling people “fag”, speculating about their virginity and/or ability to date is still pretty common. This is hardly encouraging tolerance. My weekend’s a bit booked too, but it is worth starting a thread about.
CJ