Sorry. I’m too lazy to set one up. I don’t want to put one on the scum board because I don’t want scum to be able to see the spoilers either. If someone wants to set up a spoiler board, they are welcome to.
Hi all!
Hey there. I didn’t know you had made such a habit of being lynched early.
oh yeah, I seem to exude scumminess from every pore.
Hey Wanderers. Let’s just say you had me fooled … 
Though I might have changed my vote toward the end if I was actually in the game. Not sure.
At least you’re still alive in the Giraffe game that will never end…
I wish i was dead in that one. Or is that just when I read that one…
But, assuming you aren’t Scum, non-participation would get you lynched, and make the game last longer.
I wonder why nobody ever seems to want to examine possible meanings of kill choices? Storyteller could easily have been killed because Chronos and/or Mahaloth is scum. In both cases he was pretty much the only person casting any suspicion on them, though unfortunately (IMO) nobody else seemed to care.
Dammit, I used to always get killed on Night Two, and then for a bunch of games I didn’t, and I got comfortable, and then BAM. Dead on Night Two.
Ah, well.
This early in the game it isn’t usually fruitful to examine kill choices, there are just too many variables and you end up generating suspicion information that is easily manipulated by scum and gives you a lynch with worse odds than random chance.
Later in the game it’s a more useful tool.
Ahh, that brings back pleasant Gastard-moderating memories.
(On a side note, if not for how common Millers and town-detecting Godfathers are I’d consider them bastard in any closed setup. As it is, I’m wary of ever using them in a non-open setup because I do consider it a bit of the mod lying to the players. But that’s just me. I understand that detective fooling Godfathers are so often used that it’s reasonable for players to remember their existences.
I understand that’s the conventional wisdom, but I think it’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater. In my last game as Mafia over on Idle’s board we got away with murder (literally!) in killing everybody who was suspicious of me, and I was never called on it, not even in the end game. It was almost silly.
And as for too easily manipulated by Scum, so are plenty of other things that fit that criterion that are nevertheless accepted as valid data points. I think this one should be as well.
Take this particular situation. Storyteller’s a careful and thorough player. He latches on to Mahaloth and Chronos as scummy, it’s going to be for solid reasons, and he’s not going to drop the argument without good cause, either.
Now assume a scum team not including Mahaloth or Chronos kills Story to cast suspicion on the former two. What have they gained? Less than nothing, because Story’s not even around anymore to agree with you or push the case. If both Mahaloth and Chronos are town, then the scum’s best move is to do nothing at all for a day or two. Let the town fight each other; it’s the mafia’s desired outcome. And dangerous as Story is, he can only maintain his attention in so many places at once. Even the fact of his dual suspicions makes it less likely that arguments against the real scum will break through to him.
Anyway to sum up – Mahaloth and/or Chronos is scum: strong scum motivation to kill Story. Neither is Scum: moderately strong motivation not to kill Story. Now possibly both Mahaloth and Chronos are town and Story was killed only because he’s generically dangerous and not according to any in-game situation at all. Or maybe Scum did deliberately go against what would seem to be their own best interests, for reasons of their own that the town isn’t privy to. There is still a valid argument from motivation to be made there – it’s still a data point – and I don’t really understand why the taboo is so strong against mentioning it.
As an aside, regarding what Hoopy pointed out, I’ve played on other sites where either full godfathers were extremely uncommon (we often had several different types of “detectives” in the same game, and there was almost always at least one way to detect even the best-protected mafia roles) or where role reveals were often either delayed, or incomplete (like in this game, seemingly), or missing entirely.
It’s different, to say the least. I agree that the proper criterion for fairness in any case is player expectations – stray too far and there will be complaints.
Not quite true, so I’ll put my true thoughts here rather than the game thread.
I feel that omitting a cop has two factors that must be addressed in order to establish a balanced game. (1) The diminished power of not having a cop and (2) The added power given to scum regarding a false cop claim. In my opinion, Cecil Pond addressed (1) but not (2).
In other words, lack of cop in a game isn’t in and of itself unbalanced. A balanced game could be made with no cop – for example, a diminished number of starting scum could balance the ability of scum to safely claim cop.
On a related thought, It occurred to me that the JSP point system is inadequate regarding Godfather and Detective roles. JSP give 4 points for a Detective (i.e., +3 over vanilla town) and 7 points for Godfather (+2.5 over vanilla scum). Thus, in the theoretical situation where scum kill the detective on Night One, the net result is Town loses 3 points more than a vanilla kill, but scum ALSO LOSE 2.5 points since the Godfather is now functionally vanilla.
Something isn’t right there.
I can tell you exactly where the taboo came from*, but that isn’t really your point.
You’re right, it’s silly to stick to “rules” about how to play. I generally play by philosophy rather than hard and fast rules. For me, the first three Days of a game aren’t about catching scum. If I think I spot scum then that’s a bonus, but in the first 3 Days or so I just try to get as much information as possible. On Day 4 I start trying to figure out what to do with it. Going by that, I don’t know that you have nearly enough information to make an informed decision on what the scum are trying to do and just discussing it isn’t necessarily fruitful on its own. It might be useful data to use as part of a larger case, but there are better bits of data to be gathered that have more consistent results in the early game. And remember, the results you are looking for are data, not direct scum catching.
*In the first few games it was noticed that people who were asking “why did scum do that?” were almost invariably scum. In fact, I still find that this is more true than not. People who are overly interested in exploring just how confusing and brilliant the scum were tend to be scum patting themselves on the back. That isn’t the same as saying that examining the scum kills is a scum tell, but like many things it became over simplified to the point of uselessness over time. Much like “scum would never do that”, the third vote rule, and smudging.
Yeah, aiming at data as well as (or in addition to) finding scum is a fine point that I completely have yet to master. As long as I’m not overly burdened with distractions (or plain old lack of time) and haven’t been knocked back on my heels by my own bad play and resulting accusations against me, I’m all about scum-hunting from day one. Lock and load! Ahem.
For such things to be accepted (and looked for) as just one more data point is all I’m really expecting. “Why did scum do that” – I can see it as a typical scum tactic. I HAVE seen it as a scum tactic (on other sites). But “I think Mahaloth is scum because of X, Y and Z; oh, and also, Storyteller’s death would have a stronger scum motive if he is” – that’s not quite the same thing.
I think you have to take into consideration that a Godfather who becomes confirmed town is much more useful than 2.5 points over scum goon. The balance figures in the likelihood of the power coming into being.
Just as a Doctor who guesses right every night is far more useful than a detective. But doctors typically can be expected to stop one night kill. Unless you have a doc and dick in the same game and the doc is hidden when the dick claims, but as JS said when he originally came up with the scale, you have to add extra points above the normal combined 7 for such a situation because of how nicely the powers combine into one big cup of WIFOM for scum.
Unless the Scum have a role-blocker, in which case an outed Detective and a hidden Doctor situation basically swings back the other way. Unless the role-blocker dies. Unless…
Heh.
In other news, Normal, having read your comments so far, I’m pretty sure you and I think more or less exactly the same way about Mafia. I predict this will lead us to argue a great deal in future games
My point is that scum that remove a detective remove a town power AND a scum power from the game. Scum shouldn’t be ‘punished’ for making the correct move.