Forbidden thread Version 3 (off limits to players of Mafia III)

[tirial]

[QUOTE=Gadarene]
What do you want me to say, tirial? You got the result you wanted regardless. How would it have changed if I had done random.org on Saturday following the tie vote and your name had come up?

I’m sorry. Bad, bad me. Incompetence doesn’t equal bias.

(By the way, I’ve clearly learned my lesson about putting information, however cryptic, into the forbidden thread. But I will say that the last Day or so has, to a careful observer, been interesting to watch for reasons beyond the obvious ones.)
[/QUOTE]

No, but incompetance can have the same effect as bias.

What I object to is the town losing a 50% chance of still having a Doctor block tonight. If my name had come up in random that’s one thing. To have the GM deliberately give the town more time purely to destroy the tie, is insulting.

Frankly Gad, who on earth do you think you are to ignore the players’ vote[Sup]1[/Sup]? You don’t think anyone would like a tie? Well, maybe Cookies did when she voted to create it. Maybe I’d played my a*** off to create it. Maybe nesta had a reason not to break it. Maybe Hal and Diggit weren’t going to unvote me under any circumstances, so the only way for it to be broken is for me to get lynched - sorry to point out the bleeding obvious, but you do seem to have completely overlooked this rather important point.

I told you when I found out about Idle that I was seriously annoyed with both of you, but a last minute rules change is so far beyond that, that its not even funny.

[Sup]1[/Sup](Not even refs using the red-pen-rule pull this one. Sorry. )

[fluiddruid]

[QUOTE=tirial]
Take all the exception you like.

When have any of your more unorthodox decisions actually harmed the scum in any way compared to the damage they did to the town?
[/QUOTE]
Scum was substantially harmed when we lost a kill we rightly deserved.

This isn’t a criticism of Gad, who I appreciate running the game, and I’ve enjoyed it all the same for its imperfections; running a game of this scope is bafflingly difficult and, though I want to try it myself, I am sure I will make some mistakes too. It’s okay. It’s a GAME.

But there’s no excuse for reacting this way, tirial. Truly. Chill out.

Personally I dislike the random.org breaking of ties and won’t run it that way. Lessons learned.

[Gadarene]

Well, maybe Cookies did when she voted to create it.

My impression, strongly validated by her first post-extension post (right here), is that Cookies voted to create the tie in order to allow for further discussion. You knucklehead.

No, but incompetance can have the same effect as bias.

Fine. Then stop saying I’m actually biased. Plzkthx.

[tirial]

And storyteller I don’t give a f*ck how I come off. I’ve spent the last four days under a blasted handcuff clause - exactly the same reason I quit gaming in the first place, because I got sick of catching cheats. First game on SDMB - same thing happens.

The only thing I would like to hear from Gadarene is **“I am sorry”. ** No excuses, no lies, no justifications, because frankly there aren’t any. And its the only thing he hasn’t bothered to do in any of the PMs he’s been sending me to keep me on the blasted gagging order, or any of the posts in-game since I found out about Idle, or since I came to this thread. And its the one thing I would actually like to hear.

[Quote=fluiddruid]
But there’s no excuse for reacting this way, tirial. Truly. Chill out.
[/Quote]

An apology would be nice, (instead of being taken off Christmas card lists) but I don’t actually care. I used to play tournaments; there can be a fair prize riding on those and its why - as Gad was aware - I really don’t like cheating.

Gad, as I was saying if you had read my post, Cookies created the tie, only for you to override her vote by moving it to extra time. That was ridiculous.

[Gadarene]

The only thing I would like to hear from Gadarene is “I am sorry”.

Good Lord. If I haven’t actually said this, that surprises me, but frankly I think that my constant self-flagellation has had the same effect. I’m sorry. Very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, sorry. Very.

Gad, as I was saying if you had read my post, Cookies created the tie, only for you to override her vote by moving it to extra time.

So if Cookies were to say that she created the tie in order to move the Day into extra time, what would you have to say to that?

[SnakesCatLady]

Wow, tirial, don’t take a game so seriously. If anyone has a reason to bitch about the mistake with Idle not getting killed off, it would be me. That mistake gave him more time to get me lynched and got me out of the game earlier than I might have otherwise. While I admit I have used it to whine and possibly get myself a slot in another game, I haven’t been digging at Gadarene for a mistake.

I don’t think Gadarene showed bias. Everyone makes mistakes. Let it go.

And Gadarene, don’t give up gaming because of this. You learned from it, right? I would like to see a game going all the time, or even an entire game section on the board, because I enjoy both reading them and playing them.

[tirial]

Ok, I will add a partial apology:

In the last two weeks I’ve talked down a suicide, witnessed a cyclist wipeout at 50, written a police witness report, dealt with a corporate case, taken two professional exams, ended a contract, investigated a potential fraud and completed a full consultancy report and tried to prep for two anniversaries. That’s outside of my usual work, which isn’t great (the whole “your job is literally killing you” thing). This means my sh!t tolerance has vanished. I would describe this level of activity as “marginally interesting”.

As of about 1 o’clock today (5 hours ago) my life just got to the point described as really really interesting - to the point where I think I have been looking for someone to take it out on and Gadarene made the mistake of being in the position to be that someone.

Therefore, although I think his actions during the game are pretty atrocious, I will apologise for my over-reaction. It would still be nice to get an apology from him for those actions, but right now I don’t actually care anymore.

[Lemur866]

“Cheating”?

Who’s been cheating? And in reference to tabletop RPGs, how exactly do you cheat at those? Loaded dice? Eh. I haven’t played tabletop RPGs in a while, but character sheets and dice are just story aids in my philosophy.

Anyway, I suppose emotions might be an inevitable consequence of this sort of game. Gadarene, don’t worry too much about making mistakes in moderating this one. It is just a game, no one died, there are no prizes awating the winning team. I had fun playing, and the mistakes you made…even with Idle Thoughts…were not that egregious.

[Gadarene]

storyteller:

P.S. I do think I want to make this plea to all future gamerunners: please don’t extend the Days. Ever. No matter what. I say this for two reasons: (1) it impedes the strategy of anyone who might be relying on a specific end time for the day; and (2) it encourages players to drag things out, figuring they can always count on an extension. The game is more fun when it’s under the gun. I get what you did at the end, there, Gad, but if the town was foolish enough to let a crucial decision go to random.org than that’s their bad strategy, and possibly the scum’s good strategy.

Fair enough. And I fully admit to having been influenced by the multiple Day extensions in Mafia IV in thinking it wouldn’t be a big deal. But I shouldn’t have changed the rules mid-stream, and I apologize to all for that.

Gad, I can’t believe you’d actually let something like this make you stop playing.

I’m glad that people have mostly had fun, and I’ve mostly had fun in running the game. But I have no real experience as a gamerunner (unlike tirial’s two decades as a player), and as a consequence I’ll make suboptimal decisions sometime. Which I’m sorry for. And which mean that I’m not the best choice of a person to run a game. Lesson learned.

As for not playing anymore, we’ll see. It’s burnt me out to play in Mafia IV while running Mafia III, especially because work has been super stressful and involved. So I might just take a break. It’s generally very enjoyable…just not so much the last week or so.

(By the way, tirial: I know that you’re English and may not understand the ins and outs of American slang, but “my bad” means “I apologize for having made a mistake there, for which I take full responsibility.” Really. It does.)

[SnakesCatLady]

[QUOTE=tirial]

Therefore, although I think his actions during the game are pretty atrocious, I will apologise for my over-reaction. It would still be nice to get an apology from him for those actions, but right now I don’t actually care anymore.
[/QUOTE]

Apologize for what? He has run the game the way he thought best. That is the job of the GM. He made a mistake, admitted to it and apologized for it. I don’t see that he owes you a personal apology.

[Gadarene]

It would still be nice to get an apology from him for those actions, but right now I don’t actually care anymore.

I refuse to apologize for anything.

Thanks to Lemur, fluid, and SCL.

[tirial]

[QUOTE=Lemur866]
“Cheating”?

Who’s been cheating? And in reference to tabletop RPGs, how exactly do you cheat at those? Loaded dice? Eh. I haven’t played tabletop RPGs in a while, but character sheets and dice are just story aids in my philosophy.
[/QUOTE]

At the risk of a hi-jack: in tournament play players can either play as teams for a prize, which can be large, or play to accumulate points - some organisations run it differently, sometime you carry a character across etc.

Players cheat by:

1. Loaded dice (usually the corners these days, badly weighted plastic ones float weighted corner down in liquids like coke or beer - waste of a beer)
2. Changing the stats on their sheet - used to be by changing the figures with pen and paper, is now by pre-printing faked copies to up a couple of stats. If they are taking the same character up levels game-to-game it can be hard to spot.
3. Reading the scenario in advance (this was the type of tell Idle showed).
4. Changing GM notes.
5. Failing to accurately record damage, spells, etc.
6. Murder-mystery - reading the scenario in advance, talking to players who’ve played it, swapping briefs etc.
7. Larp - fraying padding on a weapon to actually knock someone back more. Bloody dangerous. (Instant ban as I recall). Deliberately striking the head, or stabbing.
8. Larp - failing to acknowledge hits or die (less dangerous, more annoying).
   etc. There are hundreds more (including one I’ve heard by reputation only: locking an opposing team member in a different hall by blocking a fire door - guess how well that went down with the organisers…).

The blackberry under the table one was good, as was the one where the ref was dating the sister of one of the team’s players and they suddenly started getting extra points after an otherwise abysmal performance.

Spend time dealing with this as the one who has to catch it and it gets soulkilling. Believe me, these guys take their gaming seriously, and several of them unfortunately take their methods of cheating seriously too. In some cases you can understand why - its a national trophy or something. In other cases its a minor prize like a £5 voucher, and you just have to wonder why they bother - it usually costs more for the cheating materials than the prize is worth.

And Gadarene I haven’t actually run across the phrase “my bad” used like that before - the only times I have seen it used is as a put-down or dismissal, effectively equal to “who cares?”. Thanks for the explanation.

[Lemur866]

I guess I don’t see the point of allowing players to use characters from one campaign to another if you’re going to be worried about changing stats. After all, the players can put whatever they like on a character sheet. If I ran a game where I encouraged players to bring existing characters I would assume that said characters were made up by the player on the spot. Either this made-up character will fit in with the game I wanted to run, or it won’t.

[tirial]

[QUOTE=Lemur866]
I guess I don’t see the point of allowing players to use characters from one campaign to another if you’re going to be worried about changing stats. After all, the players can put whatever they like on a character sheet. If I ran a game where I encouraged players to bring existing characters I would assume that said characters were made up by the player on the spot. Either this made-up character will fit in with the game I wanted to run, or it won’t.
[/QUOTE]

Several of the larger organisations have ways of managing this - try looking up the RPGA or the authorised campaigns by various companies.

If its a standard down-the-pub game then as long as the character is made by the rules or doesn’t break them too badly there’s usually not an issue. If its an authorised tournament with the character registered with one of the groups then it definitely is.

[ArizonaTeach]

Kinder and gentler? Jeez…!

[tirial]

[QUOTE=tirial]
Several of the larger organisations have ways of managing this - try looking up the RPGA or the authorised campaigns by various companies.

If its a standard down-the-pub game then as long as the character is made by the rules or doesn’t break them too badly there’s usually not an issue. If its an authorised tournament with the character registered with one of the groups then it definitely is.
[/QUOTE]

Wizards of the Coast is one example of campaign play and how the RPGA runs it.

Smaller groups like Raven, Europa and others tend to spring up and sometimes quickly disappear. The larger companies usually have their own groups run by supporters which manage campaigns or tournaments in various ways.

Edited cos I double posted.

[tirial]

Dual post.

[Gadarene]

With respect (and because I was interested to see whether tirial would retract her point about Cookies), could this particular discussion happen in another thread?

[Idle_Thoughts]

[QUOTE=tirial]
Yep: try being the doctor who gets the GM telling them in a PM that they should roleclaim - sorry Gad did I completely ignore you resulting in Rachm getting lynched not me ?
[/quote]

I dunno. Reading and following along since my (late) death…I’d have thought that a role claim then would have helped you. I remember thinking “she should roleclaim now”.

As far as I can tell there’s been a nasty pro-scum bias in Gad’s decisions from early on.

1. Idle stayed in the game after getting info he shouldn’t have had (I’ll read this thread later to get the story on that). Apparently he was declined a sub.

This confuses me. How would that be a pro-scum thing? If anything I’d think it was a pro-town thing.
And that was my fault. My PM to Gad, that day, did say I thought I should be subbed out…but I also said that I really, really did hope and wish and would love a way that I could stay in. So I don’t blame him for doing that. I mean, really, when you think about it, what did I know? Just that there existed a scum in each group. That didn’t say anything that gave answers away. It still made me have to make choices and look at all the good it did me anyway.

So really, nothing gained and nothing really lost.

You are right though. I should have been subbed. But I was the one who should have said it and not said “Oh, I still hope there’s someway I could stay”.

I know I messed up. I fully admit it. I do feel bad already and from what I see Gad, who isn’t to blame at least in my eyes and head for that situation, feels bad himself.

In the end…well, it’s just a game. An emotional one…but one where the fun times playing it outweigh the bad come the final moment.

2. When I suspected and PM’d Gad he refused to say in-game “Idle thoughts was removed from the game due to metagame reasons” and instead told me I should roleclaim at a time it would have got me lynched (co-incidentally instead of a scum).

Because I wasn’t. I wasn’t removed because of what I knew. I was removed for a completely other reason that has nothing to do with knowing what I knew.

I was removed because a simple mistake was made in thinking I had chosen one night to patrol when the mafia chose something else. shrugs That was just a mistake.

3. Declined a sub request when I found out about Idle, and instead left me playing handcuffed.

He didn’t want to sub me out either…so it wasn’t just you. But again, I see this, if anything, as playing fair rather than pro-scum. He wanted players to try to stay in the game and not have to have someone brand new come in nearing endgame and have to get all caught up…AND hopefully not have been reading this thread themselves all this time. shrugs

Oh BTW Idle I didn’t spot you because you were “too good”. I caught you because I have a background of 20-odd years in gaming and you suddenly went quiet and came back acting like the peope I used to bust.

I dunno. I don’t see how I went quiet. I stayed with my long posts and everything and stayed consistant to what I had already built up before the accidental seeing of the post. But I do understand what you’re meaning and yeah, I should have been taken out.

But please, it’s my fault. Blame me. I messed up. I know it. And I’m sorry. I shouldn’t have stayed in. And I really am glad you started getting into gaming again. I really hope you don’t let this make you stop cold turkey because it seems like it was something you used to really love to do.

[Hal_Briston]

Guess I shoulda listened to you, hmm tirial? :smack:

Off to read the thread.