[QUOTE=magellan01]
I’m still unclear on if they were attempting to riff off something Michelle had said previously. If they did, I’d say it is not racism. If this was out of the blue, yep, racism.
[/QUOTE]
IMO, the “riffing on” is just a smokescreen–check out that blog linked to earlier–he has a great take on that “riffing”.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
IMO, the “riffing on” is just a smokescreen–check out that blog linked to earlier–he has a great take on that “riffing”.
[/QUOTE]
Can you point something out? I just went there and I don’t have the energy to go through the whole thing. (You’re talking about the blog in the OP, right?)
[QUOTE=Scylla]
My kids call their mother, “Mama.” She’s white?
Explain the racism?
How the hell does “Baby Mama” mean the kids are bastards?
I think you’re reaching.
[/QUOTE]
Who’s being naive?
You understand how language works, right? For example, how “to understand” doesn’t just mean “to position oneself in an upright stance below some reference object”?
In the same way, “babymama” isn’t just the word “baby” plus the word “mama.” Usage, society, and culture have given it a specific meaning, which is “a woman with whom I have no relationship who has borne my child.”
[QUOTE=Scylla]
Racist?
My kids call their mother, “Mama.” She’s white?
Explain the racism?
How the hell does “Baby Mama” mean the kids are bastards?
I think you’re reaching.
[/QUOTE]
Christ, read the thread, will you. “Baby mama/daddy” is an urban (read “black”) signfier for a coparent of a child to who the subject is not married and does not have a current relationship. As has already been explained upthread, calling a person “my baby mama/daddy” is explicitly done as a way to distinguish said person from a spouse or current partner. It is meant to make clear that the relationship only exists through a shared child.
It’s not the word “mama” by itself, it’s the colloquialism “baby mama” which implies a non-marital relationship.
And I will assert once again that it’s not a descriptor which Fox would have applied to Laura Bush or Cindy McCain or Hillary Clinton or Elizabeth Edwards, and it’s not how Senator Barack Obama fucking talks.
magellan, the elided sibilants are ubiquitous in urban patois.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Really? I never heard a black person speak that way. How common is this?
[/QUOTE]
Common.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Wow. I missed this story, but am glad I saw this thread. That blogger was quite funny about the whole thing. I must say I am surprised at Faux News-- I thought they were capable of more subtlety, but I guess not. I always had FN figured for “genteel racism”, but this is right out there, no holds barred, bumper sticker bigotry.
[/quote]
Oh, they’re crystal clear how blatant it was, and that it would play right into the biases of their audience, while seeming innocuous enough to give them weasel room if called on it.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
To me, Faux News putting that term out there in reference to Michelle Obama, a First Lady candidate smacks of nothing but racism, clear and simple.
[/quote]
Full stop.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
This term would not have come up for Hillary or Cindy McCain–it wouldn’t have even been a remote possibility.
[/quote]
This is an important point I’m hopeful those not familiar with the term will clearly understand.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
In a weird way, I am glad this happened-- for me, this story lends a great deal of credence to some of the complaints I have heard over the years from AA nurses, things that I tended to put down to pessimism and bile–shit like this really does happen. I see it clearly and absolutely. And it makes me sick (and angry).
[/QUOTE]
I, too, am glad it’s out there and being discussed. Perhaps those who are a little too willing to cut FOX and its ilk unearned slack will have their eyes opened to the fact that this is simply a bolder attempt to legitimize the insinuation of racist propaganda into their coverage, and a message to their audience that, see, it’s okay to be fearful of, demonize, and make fun of black people solely because they’re black.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Christ, read the thread, will you. “Baby mama/daddy” is an urban (read “black”) signfier for a coparent of a child to who the subject is not married and does not have a current relationship. As has already been explained upthread, calling a person “my baby mama/daddy” is explicitly done as a way to distinguish said person from a spouse or current partner. It is meant to make clear that the relationship only exists through a shared child.
It’s not the word “mama” by itself, it’s the colloquialism “baby mama” which implies a non-marital relationship.
And I will assert once again that it’s not a descriptor which Fox would have applied to Laura Bush or Cindy McCain or Hillary Clinton or Elizabeth Edwards, and it’s not how Senator Barack Obama fucking talks.
magellan, the elided sibilants are ubiquitous in urban patois.
[/QUOTE]
Diogenes had a slave, and hated families. From this we could infer that you favor slavery, are a racist and hate marriage and families. Except of course, that would be ridiculous, since we know you don’t. Therefore we assume that you have chosen the namesake of Diogenes for other reasons.
This is how language woks. Words have multiple meanings. Deconstruction of language involves selecting the ones you’d like to infer into somebody else’s use whether they meant them or not.
Obviously, everybody knows that Michelle is married to Obama. Fox news knows it. Nobody is seriously going to buy the idea that Fox news is using this terminology to suggest Obama’s kids are bastards.
Bill Clinton was made fun of for being Arkansas trailer trash and put down in that lingo “Brother Billy” and all. Bush is a Texas Good ole boy and put down mildly in that lingo.
I think it’s fair game. Witty. and offensible only by the offenderatti.
[QUOTE=Onomatopoeia]
No. Not even FOX is that stupid. It wasn’t a lazy attempt by FOX to mimic Michelle. It was a calculated ploy to denigrate and insult, and as a message to the faithful.
[/QUOTE]
Bullshit … the “faithful” don’t know what Baby Mama means. They aren’t hip to ebonics like you are.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
And I will assert once again that it’s not a descriptor which Fox would have applied to Laura Bush or Cindy McCain or Hillary Clinton or Elizabeth Edwards, and it’s not how Senator Barack Obama fucking talks.
[/QUOTE]
That’s true. None of their spouse’s name rhyme with “Baby Mama,” so it loses the alliteration.
If Obama’s name was Fred it wouldn’t quite roll off the tounge the way “Obama’s baby mama” does.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Can you point something out? I just went there and I don’t have the energy to go through the whole thing. (You’re talking about the blog in the OP, right?)
[/QUOTE]
This blog:
From the blog:
(I don’t know if that exceeds fair use or not–hope not)
[QUOTE=Scylla]
Diogenes had a slave, and hated families. From this we could infer that you favor slavery, are a racist and hate marriage and families. Except of course, that would be ridiculous, since we know you don’t. Therefore we assume that you have chosen the namesake of Diogenes for other reasons.
This is how language woks. Words have multiple meanings. Deconstruction of language involves selecting the ones you’d like to infer into somebody else’s use whether they meant them or not.
[/QUOTE]
This is so facile, glib and shallow I want to cry. I will agree that words have multiple meanings. You got that much right.
Are you a concrete operationalist? No one here does think that Fox believes Obama’s kids are bastards. It’s the subtext of the word (those pesky multiple meanings) that is being discussed and deplored here.
I never heard “Brother Billy” (indeed, that phrase takes me back to the Carter administration), but rather, “Slick Willy”–a double entendre and one never used (to my knowledge) by a news organization to refer to him as a candidate or the President.
Bush cultivated that good ole boy image–that came straight from his campaign. His critics are more likely to point out his Ivy League “education” and his wealth and connections–a frat rat.
Offenderati? That makes me smile. This issue is not a matter of hypersensitivity on the part of some folks. This issue cuts straight to the heart of racism in America today. Words matter–not just on the news, but in every day life. Intent matters as well (and cannot be as well ascertained as the words themselves), but only the disingenuous would believe Fox meant no disparagement.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
This is so facile, glib and shallow I want to cry. I will agree that words have multiple meanings. You got that much right.
[/quote]
I have that effect on women.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about, this whole deconstructionist thing. It really doesn’t matter. Actions matter. Words matter to an extent, but not to this whole hyperanalyzing and imputing meeting into what was simply a glib, cutesy phrase. We’ve probably put a lot more thought and effort into it that some editor at Fox did.
Sure. Does not Obama cultivate his heritage as an African American? Are we so sensitive that we can’t make the occasional facile joke for alliteration’s sake? So what if it’s a mild dig?
I’d suggest that it’s a much better world when we can make and take such digs without getting all uptight about it.
Personally, I find that a little naive. I spent four years in New Orleans. The heart of racism in this country can be seen in the Desire projects where the legacy of slavery is that whole generations are raised in poverty with no education and no chance. That paradigm is repeated all throughout the country’s ghettos.
That matters. That’s the heart of racism. When a kid from those ghettos can’t get a job or break out because he’s never been exposed to the knowledge he needs.
An alliterative pun of Fox news is beneath notice in that context. It ain’t the heart of racism. It’s just politics. It would be a great world indeed if that pun was the heart of racism.
I’m willing to go pretty far out on a limb for a joke or a pun regardless of the circumstances. I still think “Obama’s baby mama” is pretty clever. I like it enough that I’d use it if I were Obama.
Lighten up, life is good. He’s our next pres. He and his wife or going to have to come under fire… why? because of how high they’ve risen, not because of where they came from. That’s a good thing.
That we can joke about it, is good.
Scylla, quit fucking trolling.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Scylla, quit fucking trolling.
[/QUOTE]
Translation: “I can’t muster an effective argument in reply.”
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Scylla, quit fucking trolling.
[/QUOTE]
He’s the same guy who needed convincing that drowning someone might actually be a form of torture so there’s good reason to believe he truly is this obtuse. Maybe he can pull a “Black like me” to get it.
[QUOTE=Scylla]
<snip>
That’s exactly what I’m talking about, this whole deconstructionist thing. It really doesn’t matter. Actions matter. Words matter to an extent, but not to this whole hyperanalyzing and imputing meeting into what was simply a glib, cutesy phrase. We’ve probably put a lot more thought and effort into it that some editor at Fox did.
[/quote]
I’m calling bullshit on this. People writing the news and writing headlines (even chyrons like this) know exactly what they’re saying - that’s their business and their job. And it wasn’t a “glib, cutesy phrase” either - it was massively, intentionally loaded.
I don’t think it’s fair ball for them to come under fire because of the colour of their skin.
[QUOTE=featherlou]
I don’t think it’s fair ball for them to come under fire because of the colour of their skin.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Fortunately that hasn’t happened here.
[QUOTE=Scylla]
Agreed. Fortunately that hasn’t happened here.
[/QUOTE]
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, because I think that is exactly what happened here.
[QUOTE=Scylla]
Agreed. Fortunately that hasn’t happened here.
[/QUOTE]
When I see Fox “news” refer to Laura Bush as George’s baby mama I’ll agree with you. Fox was obviously making a racial insult, and a pretty offensive one at that, referring to the accomplished and educated Michelle Obama as if she were an unwed teenage mother living in the projects. That you can’t see that is baffling, and I understand why Diogenes thought you were trolling, though I don’t thik you are. Read eleanorigby’s post #116 above.
[QUOTE=Scylla]
Agreed. Fortunately that hasn’t happened here.
[/QUOTE]
so it was just a coincidence that Fox News chose to ‘poke fun’ at her w/urban black slang?
The disrespect is what gets me.
How about if they showed McCain looking particularly elderly next to his much-younger wife, with a caption “Sugar Daddy Balls Bimbo”.